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Lon

Lon

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Can God make a rock, He cannot pick up?

Can God make a rock, He cannot pick up?

Poor question. It is like asking if you can wear a red shirt that has no color.

It is just not a logical question and seeks to pit omnipotence against omnipotence, as if that were possible. It isn't.

I might either say, "there is such a thing as a stupid or ignorant question if you've asked this twice" or
"If you'd like me to help you think logically and ask meaningful questions, I'd be glad to do so."

Why this thread? Saw it mentioned. This is the answer. -Lon
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Lon said:
Poor question. It is like asking if you can wear a red shirt that has no color.

It is just not a logical question and seeks to pit omnipotence against omnipotence, as if that were possible. It isn't.

I might either say, "there is such a thing as a stupid or ignorant question if you've asked this twice" or
"If you'd like me to help you think logically and ask meaningful questions, I'd be glad to do so."

Why this thread? Saw it mentioned. This is the answer. -Lon
Click to expand...

Just to be ornery and keep the Focus on AMR... The question that starts with "Can God"... will always be followed by "Yes".

The genuine question is Will God? The answer to this has only one requirement... is the "WILL" Good.

Please help me get the word out for AMR all!
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Warning for the "Color" impaired... (Color Usage)

Warning for the "Color" impaired... (Color Usage)

freelight said:
:) - not really, just philosophizing and bringing up some pertinent points in the question of omniscience (just how omniscient is God?)...and 'free will' (if we genuinely have any degree of libertarian freedom to choose?) - I've read your previous posts here and my responses still hold, with openness for further research, exploration and innovation.
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God is utterly omniscient. Humanity desires to believe that life is on rails. People desire to have control or be controlled, but the idea of everything being under a deep architectural design that contains the ensured revelation of the most important aspect of ALL EXISTENCE (John 5:39) ... and the conclusion to all of this... that is simultaneously death and rebirth of everything (Rev. 21:1) and ensures Justice that is based on the Highest Principle of GOD (1 John 4:8)
Spoiler
Mt. 25:31-46 31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 "for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘"Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say "to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
How can I be so sure of this?
Spoiler
(James 2:1-13) My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor (Lk. 5:32) of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment
... Yet utterly fluid and uniquely responsive to our choices, by God's perfect design is rarely accepted by the majority. People don't like the idea that everything is designed to allow individuality and free will because it sets a level playing field and brings responsibility for our actions and consequences full circle back to us. People tend to desire God to be a linear thinker, and deny that He is an ABSTRACT ARTIST OF LOVE with a MAGICAL PAINT BRUSH that bears perfect FREE WILL and CREATIVE OPPORTUNITY. The MIND of GOD is beyond any super computer we could ever create! God can see multi-dimensional possibilities of every possible outcome of every possible sub-atomic shift, but in my opinion... He has designed matters in a way that lets our cosmic marbles roll around as we set them into motion, one direction or the other and allows matters to unfold uniquely before Him that is best described as a FATHER and MOTHER watching their children grow up, second by second.

freelight said:
I'll be responding to AMR soon, with his critiques on Molinism (middle knowledge model), since I do see some promise with the 'model' which appears to provide some resolve between some tensions between foreknowledge and human freedom, but there are some problematic points or objections as well, as common with any model.
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This is a philosophical, Theosophical, Theological, Pan-theological, and pretty much any sociological discussion topic that has plagued mankind since inception. I look forward to reading your findings and summations.

freelight said:
This is a very complex and complicated subject given the dynamic tensions and logics involved on different logical and dimensional planes. See: Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

Your chart and model from a Tri-une God perspective attempting to explain the tensions and relationship between 'a-temporal' and 'temporal' knowledge is commendable, and I agree with certain logical seg-ways within the 'context-model' presented.

But there are always more to dimensions to explore :)
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I deeply appreciate your encouragement. We both know that KNOWING is a Demon of human design. We are merely pondering matters that we will never fully comprehend... until we get to sit in-front of the RABBI of RABBI's to truly listen and learn!

Plato is a highly marginalized reference in the Christian community. I wonder if people realize that much of what Paul worded and Jesus worded tied to some of the deepest ideas of Plato? (Acts 11:26) is where the actual word "Christian" is first seen. Perhaps the portions of the Bible that precede this should be discounted? After all... Even Jesus didn't carry the label "Christian". People forget this (Acts 17:23)

The bible says... (Gal. 4:4f, 6f)... it also says... (Hebrews 9:10) ... Jesus is the Centrality of all things and to quote a man that was (Acts 13:22) ... (Psalm 139:7). My point... Jesus knew exactly when humanity was learned enough to comprehend and record His teachings and revelation... of-coarse... by revelation, I mean (1 Tim. 3:16). I look forward to seeing what else your findings bring.

- All Christian Love and Respect,

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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As this discussion kicks up many notches... it is noted that the OP author is only certain of several things...

1:) There is a GOD
2:) His Name is Jesus
3:) He Died, was Buried and was Resurrected (Acts 20:24)
4:) His blood is not impotent, but utterly sufficient for my Salvational ASSURANCE!
5:) Those who try to remove others from their Salvational Assurance in Jesus are unknowingly serving Satan.
6:) I'm not Jesus

- This concludes the list of theological things I am certain of. Now... It's time to crank up the (John 5:39)

Please... all who participate... lets have fun with this discussion, consider matters abstractly and feel okay with NOT KNOWING past (John 5:39f and Ephesians 2:8f). After all... we're simply talking about our favorite topic beyond all topics...

JESUS CHRIST our LORD, GOD and MESSIAH.

# You are welcome to use color and font size on this thread.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Space, time, infinity........

Space, time, infinity........

Lon said:
Poor question. It is like asking if you can wear a red shirt that has no color.

It is just not a logical question and seeks to pit omnipotence against omnipotence, as if that were possible. It isn't.

I might either say, "there is such a thing as a stupid or ignorant question if you've asked this twice" or
"If you'd like me to help you think logically and ask meaningful questions, I'd be glad to do so."

Why this thread? Saw it mentioned. This is the answer. -Lon
Click to expand...

On one level it may seem a silly or illogical question, self defeating. This however allows us to reconsider the 3 classic omnis of God classically assumed. Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. It would appear we could put qualifications on these, as proposed to omnipotence, in assuming God can only do the logically possible. So in this we posit God is unable to do what is logically impossible.

We can also qualify God's omniscience as many in the OV(open view) do by assuming God can only know what is knowable (his knowledge being limited to what has been actualized in the past and what is being actualized from moment to moment in the present, he not fully or perfectly knowing the future.......yet). So in this view....knowledge is limited to or conditioned by time and other factors (Free will choice, etc.)

We'd have to distinguish between unqualified and qualified knowledge.....what is unconditional or conditional.

While God's divine nature, attributes, qualities, power, knowledge and presence is truly infinite, the only qualifications, conditioning or limitations are imposed or assumed in space-time relativity within the constraints of creation, which includes all relationship-tensions, limitations and complexity. So it is mostly from our own limited, modified and relativized viewpoint and definitions that we are assuming various conditional formats upon the infinite.

Omniscience then is only conditional when conditions are imposed upon it. Within Creation itself space and time are naturally conditional. Our interest is in how these conditions affect our perception of reality concerning the nature, ability and attributes of God, and times relationship to infinity.
 
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jamie said:
Sure he did, Jesus is the Christ (the Anointed One) from which Christian (the anointed ones) is derived.
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There is a differentiation between God and Man.

He is Christ... people in Acts 11:26 use the word Christian to denote "A follower of Christ"..

We become like Angels...

We do not become like God.

God's TEMPLE is a picture of what our future TEMPLES will be like, but we are not God.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
jamie said:
Sure he did, Jesus is the Christ (the Anointed One) from which Christian (the anointed ones) is derived.
Click to expand...

The term was not used until a later time in Antioch, before then Jesus and his disciples were considered as just another group/branch within Judaism, called nazoreans, followers of the way, etc. - they had similarities to the Essenes as well....and later to the Ebionites. They were not Catholics or Protestants. So much of the terms of 'Christianity' and doctrinal points about Jesus were later developments.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
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Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:
We become like Angels...
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For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. (Hebrews 2:5)

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)​

Abraham is not the father of angels and angels are not heirs to the promise.

Jesus is not an angel: "Beloved, now we are children of God and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is." (1 John 3:2)

"We shall be like him." He and we have the same Father, he is our brother.
 
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