BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

Yes we do have free will now. Becoming a Christian does not make us sub-human, it makes us fully human.
The two are not mutually exclusive. We've been persuaded to be Christ's slaves, which the Scripture says is true "freedom."

As a Christian, who's will do you follow? Your own or the Holy Spirit?

Both. When we freely submit our will to God now, as we will freely do then, there is no conflict.

I beg to differ. God's will is done in Heaven and Christ prayed His will would be done on earth likewise.

You underestimate God's ability to persuade. There is no "might." In the end, all will be persuaded.

You underestimate men's hard hearts to reject their Creator. And yes, there was might when I repented. Yet, I could have said, "no".

Persuasion does not negate free will.

No, it doesn't. Which means we can say, "no".

No one, ultimately (which just happens to be the point).

Right. That's why Christ died for us. To pay that penalty of sin which is death aka separation from God aka the Lake.

Who doesn't like the idea of God being competent and successful to achieve His best and highest will for all of His creation?

He already has. He has done everything for mankind. Except force us to love Him.

I think what you meant to say was more along the lines of, "Who doesn't like to have their ears tickled with the notion they have their leisure to repent to the Creator God?"

 

[Nineveh]

I believe this is the same method that He uses upon everyone, though. Saul was able to see his own sinful condition, own up to it and repent. Those who don't ever see that condition (by choice) reject God.

Absolutely!



Who, in hell, will not have seen that condition?

Redfin,
Your reply in 3380 was to Aimiel's post.

 

[Nineveh]

No, I haven't forgotten discussing the potential of meditation for effecting positive change in individuals. I never offered it in place of "justice." I said it can and should be used, where appropriate, as a supplemental activity in "treating" selfishness and anti-sociality and combating recidivism.

Right... instead of justice. You mock God.

To the degree that your "justice" is divorced from a heart suffused with compassion and mercy, I doubt that justice can be served at all.

God defines Justice, Compassion and Mercy, not a pagan who would trade those things for meditation.

 

[Nineveh]

The Law as written in the OT does indeed point to the solution. But you were referring to the law written on our hearts as per your post #3298 "He shows everyone the Law. It's written on our hearts. The Law shows us the need for a Savior. God has done everything except make us accept Him."

Are you suggesting when Paul talked about the law being our tutor to bring us to Christ, in Galatians, that he was referring to the law as written on our hearts or the law as written in the OT?[

I tried to cover both. Those who have not heard the Gospel and those who have. Paul explains we are all without excuse. Those who have heard the Gospel know where to turn, those who have not still know to turn to the Creator. Those who accept Christ will be jugded by Christ's Righteousness, those who have not will be judged by their own conscience.

What do you mean "those who do not get to hear?" You just got done saying "He shows everyone the Law. It's written on our hearts. The Law shows us the need for a Savior. God has done everything except make us accept Him." Which is it?

Both. Paul explains all of this, did you look it up and read it?

I'll have to get back to ya on this one. My former ET teachers always used this verse to teach us why people need to get the message out. 'People are gonna burn for all eternity if someone doesn't tell them!'

We are supposed to spread the Word. Yet my point is Israel did hear... and they rejected.

You said, "The solution to the problem, that the law did not explain, was trusting in the sacrificial death of The Savior. If the law, written on our hearts, had indeed pointed to the solution I see no reason Paul would have said: "And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"

Israel, Paul's audience did know, and they rejected.

Sure do. He hardened Pharaohs heart to fulfill His purpose also.

The first time?

How about the second?

 

[Nineveh]

How about using them to pretend that the other verses, indicating that God did hardened Pharaoh's heart, don't exist?

Dave, for someone who ignores so much of God's Word and replaces it with his own ideas, you have no room to speak about pretending something in God's Word doesn't exist.

 

[Balder]

Right... instead of justice. You mock God.



God defines Justice, Compassion and Mercy, not a pagan who would trade those things for meditation.

Your answers are absurd and not worthy of further response.

See ya round, Ninny.

 

[logos_x]

Oneself.

So...oneself saves oneself, then?

That is the implication...if oneself, a slave to sin, lost, hopeless without Christ...has only oneself to blame for winding up in another hopeless situation...then it is oneself who can claim some merit and take credit for being saved if they are saved.

Nineveh, how much gobbledegook does one need to swallow in order to defend an endless torment? It is a seemingly endless progression of "they've made their choice", and that choice HAS to be permanent because if it wasn't then the torment wouldn't be eternal...and we know that even though Christ never said it would be eternal we know it is...because Christ gives eternal life...so, since the gift of God is eternal life then the torment is also eternal because people live forever, even though they never partake of the tree of life...because, well, if they don't then the torment wouldn't be eternal.

Simply put...it isn't eternal in duration, it is purposful and in-line with God's desire and ability to save all mankind. The torment isn't imposed from without, but comes from within..so men will learn that if they continue in sin, they continue in the misery sin produces. Grace is still available...after all...they are suffering "in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb" (see Rev 14:10)

 

[logos_x]

And I stand by that. Eternal hell is real and people should know that hell waits for them, it last forever, its emensly painful and its completely avoidable.

However, the gun analogy does not work for eternal torment. Lets use a plank, kind of like the pirates used. Adam and Eve were on a ship. They willingly steped out on that plank. Once on the plank, there is no going back. This is the fall of man. At the end of that plank lies a shark infested ocean and they are HUNGRY!!

Since the fall of Adam, each and every one of us has willing stepped out on that plank of our own volition. Said differently, we are all sinners and we have all fallen short of Gods glory. Left to oursevles, there is no way off of that plank. If we followed the law perfectly, like Jesus did, then we could walk back up that plank. So not going to happen.

Enter the hero, in this case played by Jesus. Our hero sings out out over the plank on a rope and offers to save anybody who reaches up to Him. Those that do are carried away to safety in God's Kingdom. Others continue along the plank, totally convinced that there is either no end to the plank (i.e. hell does not exist) or that the rope Jesus is using to rescue people is long enough to reach them in the water (universal salvation).

Now, God is not making people do anything. People have chosen to go onto the plank. God has provided a way off the plank but He is not forcing them to take it. God has limited the length of the rope Jesus is using because God is sovergien and He can do that in accordance with His will.

So yes, the lake of fire is a witnessing tool. It sure as hell got my attention! It is real, it is forever and it is very painful are just facts. That it is totally is, at least in part, the good news of Jesus.

:bang:

You believe in eternal torment...that it is a real literal place...that all unbelievers (meaning people that don't believe the same kind of thing you do about this, apparently) MUST "spend eternity" there, and these people in torment for all eternity is to reach the living and convince them that God loves them?

The insanity of tormenting people for eternity to convince people that are still alive that God loves them makes sense to you? You think nothing else would do the job?

Well..if it is what you think, then so be it...but, I think you might want to consider the remote possibilty that some people just might have a slight problem with that whole idea...because they are not quite that insane, and just possibly might think that you think that God is quite insane for believing such a thing is something he considers to be "good".

I could just hear Dr. Phil now..."let's get real".

 

[CabinetMaker]

:bang:

You believe in eternal torment...that it is a real literal place...that all unbelievers (meaning people that don't believe the same kind of thing you do about this, apparently) MUST "spend eternity" there, and these people in torment for all eternity is to reach the living and convince them that God loves them?

The insanity of tormenting people for eternity to convince people that are still alive that God loves them makes sense to you? You think nothing else would do the job?

Well..if it is what you think, then so be it...but, I think you might want to consider the remote possibilty that some people just might have a slight problem with that whole idea...because they are not quite that insane, and just possibly might think that you think that God is quite insane for believing such a thing is something he considers to be "good".

I could just hear Dr. Phil now..."let's get real".

People have a huge problem with it. I have a huge problem with it. So what. God is not bound in any way shape or form but what we are comfortable with. Hell is not there to convince people of anything. It is a judgment. It is a fianl judgement. IT is hot and painful and eternal. THAT IS WHY IT IS SOMETHING TO BE AVOIDED!!

You minimize it. No, your trivialize it. You tell people it doesn't really matter if they end up there because they will eventually get out, just as soon as they get their hearts in the right place. Under your view, hell aint all that bad. {Pauses while you protest about it being someplace to avoide because it is a fire after all} None the less, hell aint all that bad under universal theology because people still have hope of getting out and that makes it bearable. It also makes it a lie because the second death is the death of hope.

 

[logos_x]

People have a huge problem with it. I have a huge problem with it. So what. God is not bound in any way shape or form but what we are comfortable with. Hell is not there to convince people of anything. It is a judgment. It is a fianl judgement. IT is hot and painful and eternal. THAT IS WHY IT IS SOMETHING TO BE AVOIDED!!

You minimize it. No, your trivialize it. You tell people it doesn't really matter if they end up there because they will eventually get out, just as soon as they get their hearts in the right place. Under your view, hell aint all that bad. {Pauses while you protest about it being someplace to avoide because it is a fire after all} None the less, hell aint all that bad under universal theology because people still have hope of getting out and that makes it bearable. It also makes it a lie because the second death is the death of hope.

Someone jumped on me for shouting...

First, teaching what Christ taught concerning "aionion chastisment" isn't trivializing anything. It's what is TRUE.
Second, Hell does not have to be ETERNAL for people to want to aviod it.
Third...I NEVER said it doesn't matter.
Fourth, what is so bad about hope?
Fifth, Just because the Bible teaches that all men will be saved, and the chastisments aren't permanent would not make it any less of an effective means to convince people to avoid it and accept Christ now.

 

[logos_x]

...and you might want to slow down on the caffein...

 

[ApologeticJedi]

...which leaves open the option to reject Him. ...even "age-during".

I missed the part of the conversation where we started using "age-during"? I'm not sure what it mean, but I suggest that there is never a time when men will not have the option of rejecting God.


The Bible is silent on this, but I suggest that even those that have already reached heaven will have the ability and option to reject God and go to hell. I think very few will. I also believe that a man in hell might be able to find mercy with God. But again, I think few ever will.

 

[Redfin]

I missed the part of the conversation where we started using "age-during"?

You probably need to go back to the BR itself to get up-to-speed on that.

I'm not sure what it mean, but I suggest that there is never a time when men will not have the option of rejecting God. The Bible is silent on this, but I suggest that even those that have already reached heaven will have the ability and option to reject God and go to hell. I think very few will. I also believe that a man in hell might be able to find mercy with God. But again, I think few ever will.

Finally, a "right-winger" who is willing to consider alternatives! :thumb:

That's all I've been hoping to find, not necessarily agreement, but openness to consider before rejecting messages (and messengers) out-of-hand.

 

[logos_x]

I missed the part of the conversation where we started using "age-during"? I'm not sure what it mean, but I suggest that there is never a time when men will not have the option of rejecting God.

Nineveh seized on "age-during" because this is the way the Young's Literal tranlates the Greek word "aionion"...

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (Mat 25:46 YLT)​

I prefer the Weymouth New Testamant...

"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(Mat 25:46 WNT)​

But, there are quite a few that have similar treatments...

Rotherham Emphasized Bible: And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
_______
Emphatic Diaglott: And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.
_______
Twentieth Century NT: And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
________
Concordant Literal NT: And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian​

English Bibles like the KJV and the NIV, RSV, ASV...translate the same word, "aionion", as "eternal", "age", "world", "everlasting"...altogether in about 12 different ways scattered throughout the scriptures, depending on which version and "context" (they say)...but I think it has more to do with what the translators happen to believe when they translate "aionion", or that they are directed to abide by a particular church's doctrines.

For a thorough explanation...see the Battle Royale.

 

[Redfin]

As a Christian, who's will do you follow? Your own or the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit.

He has both persuaded and enabled me to do so, of my own free will.

"I think what you meant to say..."

This is the sort of thing that makes me very sad for you.

You have ears, but you cannot hear.

 

[PKevman]

How about using them to pretend that the other verses, indicating that God did hardened Pharaoh's heart, don't exist?

Ah I took the ignore off long enough just to check in with what you were saying. Guess what Dave. You make a valid point! IF I were in fact doing what you said, you would have a good point indeed. But I am not pretending those verses don't exist. They do in fact exist. Both sets of verses are true Dave, and I affirm this truth!

Using one set of verses to disprove another set doesn't work.

I agree wholeheartedly!

God hardened Pharoah heart,

Do you know HOW God hardened Pharaohs heart? I hate to sound as if I'm nitpicking Dave, but how can you be on this site debating my knowledge of the verses that speak of Pharaoh, when you don't even spell Pharaoh right?
Still, how did God harden Pharaoh's heart? By working miracles Dave. That's how!

To quote my friend and brother Bob Enyart from his manuscript "The Plot":

"God didn't sprinkle magic dust onto Pharaoh's heart to harden it. All God did was shove His great power in Pharaoh's face, and Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Great signs and wonders from God resulted in Pharaoh's hard heart."

Bob further expounds with this:

"The Bible says both that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (see Ex 8:15,32;9:34-35) and it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart; and it also says simply that Pharaoh's heart "grew hard".
Thus Pharaoh hardened his own heart when God performed great miracles for him to see. So how did God harden Pharaoh's heart? He did it with miracles!"

Well said Bob!

and Pharoah's heart was hardened of his own accord, both
scriptures are true.

Amen! But God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart by somehow entering it and making it hard, or adding a hardening compound like epoxy. As explained above, Pharaoh hardened his own heart when God worked miracles. End of story.

Y'all have such a narrow view of scripture, and of God.

REALLY? Sorry you feel that way. I love Scripture and I love God with all of my heart. My life is based around Scripture, not just on my feelings of what I think Scripture OUGHT to say! It's kind of a hollow accusation of you to accuse me of having a narrow view of Scripture when you could not (or would not) even answer a simple question asked of you pages ago about how we are to deal with sexually immoral people within the church today, even though Scripture PLAINLY outlines this for us! Mighty hollow indeed Mr. Miller!

If God Will's a heart to be turned to stone or flesh, it Will be done.

Right so we are back to the doctrine of God MAKES people get saved!

Where exactly does this view of man's will being more powerful than God's Will come from, Scripturally?

Straw man argument Dave. Nobody said man's will is more powerful than God's will. Will is not necessarily about power. Will is simply the ability to decide otherwise. And God does not violate the will that He gave man in the sense of choosing or rejecting a relationship with Him.

Say Dave, if God has a will to punish sinners from out of His presence for all eternity, does He have the power and the ability to follow through with that will? A yes or no would suffice!

 

[PKevman]

Dave, for someone who ignores so much of God's Word and replaces it with his own ideas, you have no room to speak about pretending something in God's Word doesn't exist.

So true Nin. It's funny that someone would so hotly debate my knowledge of the verses that speak of Pharaoh when they cannot even spell Pharaoh right!

 

[PKevman]

Again, Jesus said in John 8:24:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Was Jesus lying when He said this? Or will those who do not believe in fact die in their sins?

 

[PKevman]

I missed the part of the conversation where we started using "age-during"?

Hi AJ. "age-during" is the official term used by Universalists and false teachers to try to take away from the eternality of God's judgment that is listed in Scripture. It is their way of redefining the Word of God to match their false theology.

I'm not sure what it mean, but I suggest that there is never a time when men will not have the option of rejecting God.

The Bible is silent on this, but I suggest that even those that have already reached heaven will have the ability and option to reject God and go to hell. I think very few will. I also believe that a man in hell might be able to find mercy with God. But again, I think few ever will.

I would have to disagree with the statement that the Bible is silent on this.

The Bible says repeatedly that the fire never will be quenched,

And Revelation 21:8 shows us the finality of God's judgment, calling it the "second death"

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Jesus said in John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Only those whose names are found written in the Book of Life get to enter Heaven:

Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

And the utter finality of the judgment is also shown in Revelation 20:10-15

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Further Hebrews 9:24-28 shows us this:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Every man gets one judgment, and that judgment is final. It cannot be repealed. It cannot be changed. They cannot have their names written back into the Book of Life. Further Revelation 3:5 tells us that a name written in the Book of Life cannot be blotted out!

Hope this helps, God bless you and keep up the good fight!

 

[PKevman]

If God's judgment is not in fact final, then the following Scripture verses make no sense:

Daniel 12:2

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

If even ONE PERSON could lose their everlasting life, then the life would not be everlasting! If even ONE PERSON could escape everlasting contempt, then the contempt would NOT be everlasting!

Further, Paul tells us of the day when the Lord Jesus comes back with His mighty angels

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power (2 Thess 1:8-9)

Those who do NOT know God are punished with everlasting destruction. IF there were a chance for even one of them to get out, then it wouldn't be everlasting destruction, and Paul the Apostle would have most certainly included that in this description!