BRXII Battle talk

[dale]

I guess that "brings us to Christ" part was Paul foolin' with us then. Speaking of those who hear the Gospel and hear God's Law as written in the OT, one can see the whole Law points to Christ.

The Law as written in the OT does indeed point to the solution. But you were referring to the law written on our hearts as per your post #3298 "He shows everyone the Law. It's written on our hearts. The Law shows us the need for a Savior. God has done everything except make us accept Him."

Are you suggesting when Paul talked about the law being our tutor to bring us to Christ, in Galatians, that he was referring to the law as written on our hearts or the law as written in the OT?

Did you want to get into those who do not get to hear? Paul talks about those people too. They are judged by their conscience (Rom 2).

What do you mean "those who do not get to hear?" You just got done saying "He shows everyone the Law. It's written on our hearts. The Law shows us the need for a Savior. God has done everything except make us accept Him." Which is it?

Instead of just yanking that one verse out of context. You might try to see that Paul is speaking to Israel. Who more than they did hear... and reject? V 19: "But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:..."

I'll have to get back to ya on this one. My former ET teachers always used this verse to teach us why people need to get the message out. 'People are gonna burn for all eternity if someone doesn't tell them!'

And my reply back then was, "you mean like pharaoh?" Understand?

Sure do. He hardened Pharaohs heart to fulfill His purpose also.

 

[PKevman]

No choice is possible forever after.

The result...eternal torment.

That is the whole gist of the doctrine. Everything Christ did, and God accomplished, is determined to be effective only within the confines of this physical lifetime.

How effective was the cross...again?

Effective to save whosoever will come. Let's flip it around, IF Universal Salvation is NOT true, was the cross still effective?

 

[logos_x]

Ok lets ask it another way. How many times did Christ die for our sins?

How many did Christ die for?

 

[logos_x]

Effective to save whosoever will come. Let's flip it around, IF Universal Salvation is NOT true, was the cross still effective?

You know what...I think that is the problem. You keep "flipping it" around.

If the salvation of ALL is true...was the Cross still effective?

 

[Aimiel]

Look, why do think it's impossible to accept Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die?

I believe that no one is promised tomorrow. The Word of God says that today is the day of salvation. We're to repent while it is still called, "today."

More importantly, since there is absolutely no basis in scripture for your stance, why do you believe that it is possible to be saved after death?

 

[PKevman]

You know what...I think that is the problem. You keep "flipping it" around.

If the salvation of ALL is true...was the Cross still effective?

But the salvation of all is NOT true, only that the offer of salvation is given to all. The effectiveness of the cross is not determined by man's salvation, but rather by the fact that a holy God made a way for sinners to be saved. If only ONE person were saved, the cross would be effective!

 

[PKevman]

How many did Christ die for?

Christ died for all. Now can you answer my question please, how many times did Christ die?

 

[logos_x]

Christ died for all. Now can you answer my question please, how many times did Christ die?

I think once was enough.

 

[PKevman]

Sure do. He hardened Pharaohs heart to fulfill His purpose also.

What do you do with the verses that indicate that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
Exodus 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:32

But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:34

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

 

[PKevman]

I think once was enough.

Hebrews 9:27-28

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Just as Christ was offered once, it is also appointed to men to die once, and after this THE judgment!

 

[logos_x]

Hebrews 9:27-28

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Just as Christ was offered once, it is also appointed to men to die once, and after this THE judgment!

I know.

You somehow think that this flies in the face of Christ being the savior of all men, and in the end God being all in all.

Paul didn't think so...why do you?

 

[dale]

What do you do with the verses that indicate that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
Exodus 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:32

But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:34

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

I believe them, just like I believe the ones that say God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
"For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

 

[dale]

I'm done with you on who said what, when, where, and how. It's gotten so convoluted I can't even keep it straight any more.

There is no difference between God MAKING and God FORCING. No difference.

Lets see if you can guess which one is called A) forcing her to go and the one called B) making her want to go

1) I grabbed her by her arm, dragged her to the car and locked her in, driving off to Grandma's.
2) I showed her the value in coming with me to visit Grandma whereby she agreed and willingly came with me.

I think the answer is obvious.

You just lied. You said:


AND you repeated this request again in post #3291!

So I answer and you say you never had a question about Paul. Consistent Universalist behavior!

It wasn't a lie. I didn't know you were referring to that. That wasn't a question about Paul. It was a request for you to show what Scripture verse you used to support your position that "Paul could have rejected at any time God's plan for his life." I was expecting a "proof text." If it makes you feel better to think you "Truth Smacked" me, feel free.

For the record, I don't believe Paul could have rejected God's plan for his life. If God determines you're gonna do this or that... you're gonna do this or that. Willingly or not.

Dale: If God MADE paul willing, did Paul have a choice to be willing or not?

It's a simple question, how about answering it instead of trying to determine what the answer will do to your position. And please keep in mind that you stated you never said Paul's choice was taken away.

Paul's choice to follow Christ was not taken away. Pretty obvious since he did choose to follow Christ.

Your question as to whether Paul had a choice to be willing or not has more to do with whether he chose "freely." No, I don't believe he did. No more than he had a choice as to whether he would be born into this world or not. To get into it would be off subject, so I'll just say whereas I believe we have a will, I don't believe it's "free."

The question shouldn't be whether Paul had a choice for God to make him willing or not. It should be whether Paul WAS willing or not. Paul did indeed choose to follow. Just like the example of "the girl going to Grandma's" above.

Sure they were deceived, just as Universalists are!

I know you are, but what am I? I wish there was one of those smilies that accurately depicted Pee Wee Herman saying that. At least something going "neener, neener, neener"

Sure, he could be an example of a wicked and false god.

So you were wrong when you stated "So please don't make it out as if Paul was serving some wicked pagan God." ?

But yet YOUR theology states we will be fellowshiping with Satan for all eternity, so are you sure you want to use him as an example?

Yes, I do want to use him as an example. As Satan he certainly is a false god. If he is redeemed in the future, he will no longer be Satan.

But he thought he was serving God, and his zeal was great. And God used that zeal to do great things with Paul once Paul got saved!

Yep. With God all things (or all sorts of things? either way) are possible.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Lets see if you can guess which one is called A) forcing her to go and the one called B) making her want to go

No, I did not use a gun to force her to go, I only put the gun against her head to make her see the value of going to grandma's house.

 

[logos_x]

No, I did not use a gun to force her to go, I only put the gun against her head to make her see the value of going to grandma's house.

Isn't that what you say eternal torment is for?

Something along the lines of it being a "witnessing tool"...I think you said. :think:

Now...if can't tell the difference between causing someone to want something, and forcing someone to do something against their will...it's no wonder you think that billions of people in torment constitutes a "witnessing tool".

 

[red77]

We are not talking about one book here. A great deal of Revelations I do read literally such as the opening of seals and the sounding of the trumpits. I think the descriptions of the beast are metephore.

The parables are great teaching tools and do not need to be manipulated, nor should they be, to get some other message out of them. Jesus was very plain and very direct with His teachings. He want speople to be saved so He would not vail His teachings. WHat you are doing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to take something Jesus has said and say that Jesus really didn't mean that, He meant this. That is false teaching on your part.

Well in that case why cant you just accept that Jesus came to save the world, that he died as a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time, that he is the saviour of ALL men ESPECIALLY of believers? Who is it who cannot see what is so plainly written and has to distort and twist just these couple of verses (out of many) into meaning something so completely different?
:think:

 

[Ecumenicist]

What do you do with the verses that indicate that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
Exodus 8:15

Exodus 8:32

Exodus 9:34

How about using them to pretend that the other verses, indicating that God did hardened Pharaoh's heart, don't exist?

Using one set of verses to disprove another set doesn't work.

God hardened Pharoah heart, and Pharoah's heart was hardened of his own accord, both
scriptures are true.

Y'all have such a narrow view of scripture, and of God. God has the power to harden or heal.
Humans have the power to harden or heal as well.

Who's Will is more powerful, who's Will prevails?

If God Will's a heart to be turned to stone or flesh, it Will be done.

Where exactly does this view of man's will being more powerful than God's Will come
from, Scripturally? Since so much of ET doctrine rests on it, surely it must be stated
somewhere in Scripture...

 

[CabinetMaker]

Isn't that what you say eternal torment is for?

Something along the lines of it being a "witnessing tool"...it think you said. :think:

Now...if can't tell the difference between causing someone to want something, and forcing someone to do something against their will...it's no wonder you think that billions of people in torment constitutes a "witnessing tool".

And I stand by that. Eternal hell is real and people should know that hell waits for them, it last forever, its emensly painful and its completely avoidable.

However, the gun analogy does not work for eternal torment. Lets use a plank, kind of like the pirates used. Adam and Eve were on a ship. They willingly steped out on that plank. Once on the plank, there is no going back. This is the fall of man. At the end of that plank lies a shark infested ocean and they are HUNGRY!!

Since the fall of Adam, each and every one of us has willing stepped out on that plank of our own volition. Said differently, we are all sinners and we have all fallen short of Gods glory. Left to oursevles, there is no way off of that plank. If we followed the law perfectly, like Jesus did, then we could walk back up that plank. So not going to happen.

Enter the hero, in this case played by Jesus. Our hero sings out out over the plank on a rope and offers to save anybody who reaches up to Him. Those that do are carried away to safety in God's Kingdom. Others continue along the plank, totally convinced that there is either no end to the plank (i.e. hell does not exist) or that the rope Jesus is using to rescue people is long enough to reach them in the water (universal salvation).

Now, God is not making people do anything. People have chosen to go onto the plank. God has provided a way off the plank but He is not forcing them to take it. God has limited the length of the rope Jesus is using because God is sovergien and He can do that in accordance with His will.

So yes, the lake of fire is a witnessing tool. It sure as hell got my attention! It is real, it is forever and it is very painful are just facts. That it is totally is, at least in part, the good news of Jesus.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well in that case why cant you just accept that Jesus came to save the world, that he died as a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time, that he is the saviour of ALL men ESPECIALLY of believers? Who is it who cannot see what is so plainly written and has to distort and twist just these couple of verses (out of many) into meaning something so completely different?
:think:

Because the Bible clearly says that many will enter into destruction. Why do you keep ignoring that? One more time from your prefered translation:

Matthew 7:13
`Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;

Note that the speaker here is Jesus Himself.

de·struc·tion /dɪˈstrʌk

ʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-struhk-shuh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the act of destroying: wanton destruction of a town. 2.the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation. 3.a cause or means of destroying.
Note that the definition of destruction contains no reference of any sort to purification.

 

[Nineveh]

Ok...let me rephrase:

If you have the possibility of salvation removed..what removes it?

Oneself.

What about death negates the ability to choose to be saved?

Do you want to talk about death now? Or will this be another exercise in futility? Dave does this a lot. He wants to keep trying to introduce "unconditional love" yet he really doesn't want to dialog he just wants to toss the word/concept around.

Is it because God no longer allows it? Is it because they cannot choose? Is it because there is something about death that sets ones will in stone forever?

I know you want to give age during to folks, but really logos, satan has had 6000 years. How much longer before his hatred turns to love? How long must God wait before he can put satan under His feet?

Why would it be in God's best interest, or the best interest of the sinner...to make it so it is impossible to be saved at some point in the future?

Not just sinner logos, unrepentant sinner. Unrepentant sinners who have no excuse now. How is it in God's best interest to finally get to put away evil, sin, and death? How beneficial do you find these things that God should "age-during" endure them? Those who reject God have not traded in their own will, they have chosen to redeem themselves by their own righteousness. God is granting them the 100% freedom from him they want.