BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

Sure you have. That's what you offered in place of justice not too long ago. Have you forgotten?

No, I haven't forgotten discussing the potential of meditation for effecting positive change in individuals. I never offered it in place of "justice." I said it can and should be used, where appropriate, as a supplemental activity in "treating" selfishness and anti-sociality and combating recidivism.

To the degree that your "justice" is divorced from a heart suffused with compassion and mercy, I doubt that justice can be served at all.

 

[PKevman]

This is true.
Are you fully understanding what you are saying, though?

Saul...who became the Apostle Paul...had no intention of becoming a Christian.
He still got saved.

Did God "make" him get saved? Or did He personally persuade Him to be saved?

Pauls choice became clear once Christ personally made him realize who He really was, and who Paul was in reality persecuting. Paul then had the things he needed to be saved and not continue in the way he was going.

Without that, Saul would never have become the Apostle Paul.
Christ, personally, made a Christian out of Saul. I don't think He "forced Him to become one...it was not necessary to "override" Paul's will...just to "make" him want to be a Christian.

Ok Stephen, I can actually agree with most of what you say here. I would say it would be better stated that God INFLUENCES people to be saved. But God never overrides their free choice. And I believe God the Holy Spirit works to convict all men today, but not all come to salvation. Many die in unbelief, and I know that you at least agree with me on that point, right?

 

[PKevman]

I believe this is the same method that He uses upon everyone, though. Saul was able to see his own sinful condition, own up to it and repent. Those who don't ever see that condition (by choice) reject God.

Although in some respects, Paul's conversion was not the norm. God used more direct methods in reaching Paul then He does the average Joe. And Paul became an Apostle, a specific role that has only been held by a select few individuals in the course of history. (12 to be exact)

But yes you are right in that God draws everyone to Him.

 

[logos_x]

Ok Stephen, I can actually agree with most of what you say here. I would say it would be better stated that God INFLUENCES people to be saved. But God never overrides their free choice. And I believe God the Holy Spirit works to convict all men today, but not all come to salvation. Many die in unbelief, and I know that you at least agree with me on that point, right?

Absolutely. :thumb:

 

[logos_x]

Does death spell the end of an Open Future? :think:

 

[PKevman]

If you have the possibility of salvation removed..what removes it?

Exiting this life an unbeliever, dying in your sins.

What about death negates the ability to choose to be saved?

Because there are no other choices, no other purgatories, no in betweens. The Scriptures show that it is appointed to men to die once, and after this they face judgment. And God's judgment is final! And there is not one verse anywhere that shows clearly that people are given the opportunity to repent after they die! And so many other reasons.......

Is it because God no longer allows it?

exactly!

Is it because they cannot choose?

Once they die they have made their choice.

Is it because there is something about death that sets ones will in stone forever?

No it is because they "die in their sins" and cannot have their sins paid for any longer!

Why would it be in God's best interest, or the best interest of the sinner...to make it so it is impossible to be saved at some point in the future?

Because their rejection of Him is what they chose. And God doesn't FORCE people to love Him. So when they reject Him and the only way that He has provided for salvation they have no more hope! The only hope that mankind has is in Christ. Your argument is that God might have mercy sometime in the future. The problem is that there is no mercy found apart from Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. That was the greatest act of mercy in the history of the world, that a holy and righteous God would be so MERCIFUL to evil man, that He would allow His Son to die on that cross among criminals!

When people reject the sacrifice of the Son of God they just have no other hope to receive mercy from God.

 

[PKevman]

Does death spell the end of an Open Future? :think:

Even an Open Theist believes that some things in the future are settled, such as those things that God has declared. The future is not wide open in every single respect, just as it is not settled in every minute detail for each individual. The truth lies between the two extremes.

 

[Aimiel]

Who, in hell, will not have seen that (sinful) condition?

No one; the difference being: those who repent (while alive) are sorry for having sinned, while those (however repentant they might pretend to be) are merely sorry that they got caught.

 

[logos_x]

Exiting this life an unbeliever, dying in your sins.



Because there are no other choices, no other purgatories, no in betweens. The Scriptures show that it is appointed to men to die once, and after this they face judgment. And God's judgment is final! And there is not one verse anywhere that shows clearly that people are given the opportunity to repent after they die! And so many other reasons.......



exactly!



Once they die they have made their choice.



No it is because they "die in their sins" and cannot have their sins paid for any longer!



Because their rejection of Him is what they chose. And God doesn't FORCE people to love Him. So when they reject Him and the only way that He has provided for salvation they have no more hope! The only hope that mankind has is in Christ. Your argument is that God might have mercy sometime in the future. The problem is that there is no mercy found apart from Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. That was the greatest act of mercy in the history of the world, that a holy and righteous God would be so MERCIFUL to evil man, that He would allow His Son to die on that cross among criminals!

When people reject the sacrifice of the Son of God they just have no other hope to receive mercy from God.

This is true if the "cut-off" is physical death...so why is it that physical death is viewed as the cut off?

Why does Christ's ability to save men end because we die physically?

When I debated this with Apologist in a One on One...he said that the Catholic belief is that "eternity" is static...that no metenoia is possible because they are forever in the condition they die in.

Is this what you believe?

If so, why?

 

[PKevman]

Absolutely. :thumb:

So why do you insist that those who die in unbelief would have any hope of having their sins forgiven?

Hebrews 10 gives us a sobering look at what happens to those who reject the only sacrifice for their sins that God has given:

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If someone rejects Jesus Christ how could they hope to have their sins forgiven?

 

[Aimiel]

Although in some respects, Paul's conversion was not the norm. God used more direct methods in reaching Paul then He does the average Joe.

That was my point, that the personal things that He does are just as personal and just as real as what Paul encountered, though perhaps not as dramatic or spectacular. I don't believe that anyone can understand Truth without communion with The Spirit of The Lord. He makes Truth clear to us, and gives us repentance. Without Him, we'd be just as lost as Saul was. I don't know about you, but I've had experiences with The Spirit of The Lord which are pretty spectacular, and believe that God is no respecter of persons. Those we often hold in low esteem may be revered by Him, for their faith or the attitude of their hearts.

 

[logos_x]

No one; the difference being: those who repent (while alive) are sorry for having sinned, while those (however repentant they might pretend to be) are merely sorry that they got caught.

I think that is pretty much an assumption.
How would you know that repentance is impossible and only a pretense simply because they don't have a physical body anymore?

 

[PKevman]

This is true if the "cut-off" is physical death...so why is it that physical death is viewed as the cut off?

Because that is what the Scriptures teach my friend.

Why does Christ's ability to save men end because we die physically?

See answer above.

When I debated this with Apologist in a One on One...he said that the Catholic belief is that "eternity" is static...that no metenoia is possible because they are forever in the condition they die in.

Is this what you believe?

I wouldn't state it quite that way, but rather when we die the decision we make in this life (whether to accept Christ as the way, the truth, and the life, or to reject Christ as the way, the truth, and the life) determines what eternity we face. I'm not catholic, and I base my views solely on what the Scriptures say.

 

[logos_x]

So why do you insist that those who die in unbelief would have any hope of having their sins forgiven?

Hebrews 10 gives us a sobering look at what happens to those who reject the only sacrifice for their sins that God has given:

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If someone rejects Jesus Christ how could they hope to have their sins forgiven?

Jesus took care of that.

Look, why do think it's impossible to accept Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die? Why is it impossible to recieve the salvation offered only while physically alive? And...even if you can prove that a physical body is necessary for repentance...what about being raised to life again in resurrection? They would then be alive again...why can't they "get saved" then?

Is it because it isn't allowed? If that is the case, how is it true that God truely desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

Is it because they CAN'T? If that is the case...I think it requires more than mere speculation...don't you?

 

[PKevman]

Look, why do think it's impossible to accept Christ's sacrifice for sin after they die? Why is it impossible to recieve the salvation offered only while physically alive?

see below:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1392427&postcount=3338

 

[logos_x]

Because that is what the Scriptures teach my friend.



See answer above.





I wouldn't state it quite that way, but rather when we die the decision we make in this life (whether to accept Christ as the way, the truth, and the life, or to reject Christ as the way, the truth, and the life) determines what eternity we face. I'm not catholic, and I base my views solely on what the Scriptures say.

This would be true only if the future slams shut somehow when we die.

 

[PKevman]

Jesus took care of that.

Jesus took care of our sins, but He didn't take care of making our choice for us. We have to make that choice.

what about being raised to life again in resurrection? They would then be alive again...why can't they "get saved" then?

The resurrection is for Christians only, when those who died in their sins are brought to stand before God it is not called resurrection, it is called judgment!

Is it because it isn't allowed?

Only in this life. After this life is over there are no other choices as it relates to whether or not we will have our sins paid for and receive God's gift of eternal life.

If that is the case, how is it true that God truely desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

Because He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is God's desire and it shows His great love for mankind in general. But notice it does not say God MAKES all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Just that it is what He desires!

Is it because they CAN'T? If that is the case...I think it requires more than mere speculation...don't you?

Not at all. Just being true to the Biblical texts is all it requires my friend.

 

[PKevman]

This would be true only if the future slams shut somehow when we die.

Ok lets ask it another way. How many times did Christ die for our sins?

 

[PKevman]

This would be true only if the future slams shut somehow when we die.

Jesus said in John 8:24:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[logos_x]

Once you die there are no other choices, your eternal destination is determined...

No choice is possible forever after.

The result...eternal torment.

That is the whole gist of the doctrine. Everything Christ did, and God accomplished, is determined to be effective only within the confines of this physical lifetime.

How effective was the cross...again?