PKevman
New member
B.O. :chuckle:
This would be a discussion better suited for one of the many open vs. settled view threads on this board.
BRXII Battle talk
- Thread starter Poly
- Start date
- Status
B.O. :chuckle:
This would be a discussion better suited for one of the many open vs. settled view threads on this board.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Logos, you are missing the point, even gifts can be rejected.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Was satan misinformed? Is balder misinformed? He's more honest with God' Word than you are.
Paul tell us... once again "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."
Dave, you really should consider finding the name(s) of that god/dess(es) that agree(s) with you.
PKevman
New member
Hi Stephen!
We have already been through your views on Eph. 2:7-9. If you read that chapter back from verse #1, you cannot support this view that FAITH is the gift. Salvation is the gift!
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
The text is saying that it is by grace we are saved and we are saved THROUGH FAITH, but the through faith relates to the by grace we are saved, so you have bent this verse to try to say that it is saying the FAITH is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. But that cannot be so, because the rest of the verse destroys that view:
It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Your contention is that FAITH is the all-important "it" in this verse, but that makes no sense Stephen. Would we try to WORK to receive faith? NO! We would try to work for salvation! We would try to earn a place with God by doing good works. Paul explodes the idea that we could earn favor with God by doing good works. That is why he says that we are SAVED BY GRACE-through faith-
Understand? The salvation by grace is what is the gift of God, and cannot be attained by works!
Please acknowledge that you at least have read and understand this explanation even if you don't agree with it.
God bless.
PKevman
New member
You are exactly right, and faith is not even the gift that the text is talking about, it is salvation by grace!
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Well, when you get used to ripping a verse or two out of context to make your point, it gets twisted sometimes. But I doubt logos cares. It sounded good.
Balder
New member
No, we see crime as a manifestation of delusion, and we have compassion on the deluded.
logos_x
New member
Faith is a part of the Grace offered.
And, yes, it can be rejected...but that doesn't mean it will always be for all future time...now, does it?
logos_x
New member
So, what then?
Let's get practical, shall we?
Did YOU come to faith without the Holy Spirit bringing you to faith?
Jesus had this to say:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:44 KJV)
(Joh 6:44 KJV)
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:15-17 KJV)
(Mat 16:15-17 KJV)
Now..if you are going to say that faith is not a part of the redemption process, as a part of what is recieved, from God...as a gift, and as the enabling of the Holy Spirit so men can be saved...well, we are going to be in disagreement on this point as well.
BTW...your assertion that you cannot support faith as a gift of God from scripture is quite unsupportable in itself...
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
(Rom 9:14-16 KJV)
(Rom 9:14-16 KJV)
Now...you might want to argue with the Apostle over that. I won't, because in my experience...if it were not for those things being true...I would not be here debating you, I'd be out sinning, no doubt, right now...and probably would never even muster up any faith at all.
I'm saying it is not of works at all, Kevin. It's a faith that works...we do not work to make something happen.
In Paul's view...it is the Cross that saves, not the will of man alone...in fact, the will of man is one of the things that must be saved in the first place!
Oh..I understand it.
And it is another salvation by willpower disertation claiming Biblical support...like so many others bouncing around America these days.
Kevin...we are quite unable, on so many levels, of ever saving ourselves. Christ is the savior...not us. That is a part of the good news, because if God left it up to us...well it's ability to succeed would be in severe jeopardy right out of the gate. If that was the way it was going to be, I doubt Jesus would've bothered even going to the cross in the first place...it would be just a "chance" that maybe someone might be smart enough to perhaps stumble upon something that just might possibly work.
It ain't like that.
Redfin
New member
I have to agree, for if saving faith is not a part of the salvation-package that is gracefully gifted, doesn't that paradoxically make such faith a form of works?
ApologeticJedi
New member
Faith is not a work. Paul is contrasting faith and works, so we know that Paul does not mean that faith is a work.
He is not arguing that salvation is anything less than synergism.
ApologeticJedi
New member
There is no obligation on God's part to offer it for all time. A deadline is abundantly fair - in fact, that he offers it for any amount of time is fair.
People who don't like the thought of an eternal hell typically underestimate the tragedy of sin. It's not that bad ... they think. They also typically underestimate the value and deity of Jesus.
Redfin
New member
I agree. That's why to disagree with logos_x above would create a paradox and a falsehood.
Exactly!
For crying out loud...
If it was tooooooooooooo long ya Kevin, try skipping over the little song.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Right, love the criminals. That works. Check the recidivism rates.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Well said!
...which leaves open the option to reject Him. ...even "age-during".
Redfin
New member
And does not rule out the option to accept Him, even age-during. :thumb:
Nineveh
Merely Christian
If we have freewill, we have the freewill to reject God. Even "age-during". God does not have to keep forever open in the hope entities will at some point a bajillion years from now might come to love Him. God's patience, while long suffering, is not presented in Scriptures as never ending.
AJ speaks the truth:
"There is no obligation on God's part to offer it for all time. A deadline is abundantly fair - in fact, that he offers it for any amount of time is fair.
People who don't like the thought of an eternal hell typically underestimate the tragedy of sin. It's not that bad ... they think. They also typically underestimate the value and deity of Jesus."
I believe you know very well what you were doing. You are not one of those 100 people who have never read this thread. You were the one who asked: "Please cite the Scripture verse that says God MAKES you willing." Then changed it to "Why do you think the conversion of Paul is a proof that God forces people to accept Him?" If you really don't know the difference between God making someone willing, and God forcing someone to be saved, then try asking sincere questions rather than manipulative ones.
I didn't have a question about Paul.
I never said his choice was taken away.
Yeah, a Pharisee. The group Jesus was referring to when He said "You are of your father the devil..."
You mean like, the devil?
But he wasn't. He was serving... the devil.
Yep. He knew him well enough to know exactly what to do to not only convince him of his wrong but also to create in him a heart devoted to The Savior. It wasn't because of some good thing created by Paul. It was because of the grace of God.
Redfin
New member
I agree. Do you believe the saved will have free will in heaven?
I agree, "might" is never a factor.
I agree.
I disagree here. This is neither true of me nor of the others here as I understand them.
People who don't like the thought of God ultimately saving everyone underestimate the gravity and persuasive power of even a temporary hell.
- Status