Er....i didnt say that this 'chasm' was possible to be crossed, I said it would hardly make sense to believe that anyone from Heaven would WANT to cross a chasm to get into hell, If i recall Abraham says its there to stop people from going from either hell to heaven or vice versa even if they wanted to, if you are happy to believe this to be a litreral story CM then its your call, i'm certainly not - and would have difficulty in doing so whether I was a universalist or not.....
BRXII Battle talk
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Er....i didnt say that this 'chasm' was possible to be crossed, I said it would hardly make sense to believe that anyone from Heaven would WANT to cross a chasm to get into hell, If i recall Abraham says its there to stop people from going from either hell to heaven or vice versa even if they wanted to, if you are happy to believe this to be a litreral story CM then its your call, i'm certainly not - and would have difficulty in doing so whether I was a universalist or not.....
logos_x
New member
I agree.
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(Joh 17:2 KJV)
Now...I think the reason some have been given to Christ out of the world is so that the world may be saved...not that they are the only ones to ever be saved.
Surely you can understand that for the world to be saved, the agency to accomplish it must be in place and active in the world...and it can not be undone EXCEPT that men might not believe. It isn't because God cuts it all off because they die...which is what eternal torment says, it is because they cut themselves off....and unless you think that is made permanent somehow, there is no reason to think they will ALWAYS for all future time, refuse to come...continually rejecting their own salvation.
Perhaps they might, perhaps they could...but it does not follow as a forgone conclusion that they WILL.
But...that is what eternal torment teaches, in the current way it is viewed. They have NO CHOICE...and they are FORCED to live in torment, and FORCED to do so forever.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Compare:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ... “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God did not say He is going to save everyone or everything. Trash can be subjected without being saved.
Except most of human history recorded in the Bible witnesses to the fact men hate God and want to go their own way. How long would it take before God can finally let them have their own way? 6000 years isn't enough, how about 6000000000000000 years? Eternity isn't long enough to make people who hate God love Him.
Nope. So why do you demand God keep forever open for that possibility. You yourself need to have forever for them because even you realize some just hate God.
Entities have hated God almost from day 1. I'm glad at some point in the future there will be no more need to worry about those who hate God. It will be like... eternity in heaven
I'm not convinced the Law shows us our need for a Savior. I agree it shows us our dilemma, but not convinced it shows how to remedy it.
That's why I said "sorta like." If God was doing the convincing He could make you want to do anything... like that king that God made to graze like a cow. What was his name?
Why would you have trouble believing it? Be specific please.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. - Paul
You mean like pharaoh?
Yes God did say that and more, you would just sooner believe that God is incapable of doing so
Right......so according to you people would actually WANT to remain in hell because they 'hate' God?......:masochist:
And so God is unable to restore those who are misguided with his love? Even Saul was transformed from hating God to witnessing for God, if Saul can be transformed what in all the world could stop God working the same healing in everyone?
Entities have hated God almost from day 1. I'm glad at some point in the future there will be no more need to worry about those who hate God. It will be like... eternity in heaven
Of course, those in heaven can put the misery of others out of their mind for ever, right? :rain:
For all the reasons i've outlined already CM! It makes no sense when read literally.....
Nineveh
Merely Christian
God is not incapable of keeping His Word, He just isn't bound by yours.
Why would they want to be with God if they hate Him?
You can't say the same for the first Saul though, can you?
Jesus promises to wipe away every tear. I have a feeling there will be many to wipe away. Especially for those promoting a doctrine that promises there will be no end to God's patience when that is an utter lie.
That is the same thing as saying that it makes no sense to read the Bible lterally. You are allowing yourself to pick and choose what you will believe and how you will believe it. How can so easily treat Gods word with such disdane?
God is not incapable of keeping His Word, He just isn't bound by yours.
Ironically I'm not the one trying to bind God's ability, its you by saying that he cannot save his own world....
What is your definition of hate exactly? unbelief, agnosticism? Not everyone is like Saul of Tarsus, yet if God can transform such an enemy of Christianity then what on earth makes you think that everyone else - once presented with God face to face - would NOT want to be with him?
I cant say it about anyone other than Saul/Paul, noone else I know of had an encounter with God the likes of what occurred on the road to damascus, whats your point?
notice that Nin - EVERY tear, not just a few/some/ a handful here and there - but every single one....
I dont read revelation literally either, do you? Do you read every single thing in the Bible literally? If not then please dont accuse me of treating the word with disdain,
We are not talking about one book here. A great deal of Revelations I do read literally such as the opening of seals and the sounding of the trumpits. I think the descriptions of the beast are metephore.
The parables are great teaching tools and do not need to be manipulated, nor should they be, to get some other message out of them. Jesus was very plain and very direct with His teachings. He want speople to be saved so He would not vail His teachings. WHat you are doing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to take something Jesus has said and say that Jesus really didn't mean that, He meant this. That is false teaching on your part.
I agree the law was a tutor used to bring us to Christ, in that it showed our problem. I just don't believe it showed the way out of our problem.
"And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" - Paul
Got it, King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel 4:15-16
"...And let him graze with the beasts
On the grass of the earth.
Let his heart be changed from that of a man,
Let him be given the heart of a beast,"
The end of the chapter shows this is indeed what happened.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
You are adding to His Word, red. He isn't bound by what you want.
You mean like the first Saul or pharaoh or Israel?
So the only one that counts is the only one that you can build you case around? Not surprising. You tend to ignore the rest of the Book anyway.
notice that Nin - EVERY tear, not just a few/some/ a handful here and there - but every single one....
...the more you offer false hope in the lake, the more tears there will be.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Confused: "I agree the law was a tutor used to bring us to Christ" yet, " I just don't believe it showed the way out of our problem". Which is it?
Ok... and?
logos_x
New member
Nineveh...were you ever trash? Were you always a believer?
Maybe you were. I wasn't...and neither was the Apostle Paul.
Now...why do you feel compelled on insisting that unbelievers must remain unbelievers forever?
God NEVER will compromise with sin, Nineveh.
They will not "get their own way"...because it is the way of death.
Just what do you think I mean by everyone being SAVED Nineveh?
And, why do you demand that people must live, forever even apart from God.
You are leaving out of your theology a very important consideration...Jesus Christ actually SAVING people.
Entities have hated God almost from day 1. I'm glad at some point in the future there will be no more need to worry about those who hate God. It will be like... eternity in heaven
Wouldn't it be great if no-one hated God? Is that ever going to be possible? Why is God all in all thought to be so damn dangerous to so many?
Is the complete obliteration of evil, while at the same time restoring all creation, so unthinkable that no one could possibly think it to ever be possible?
Or is it what it really seems...that the teaching has been that it's dangerous to think that the one who created all things could actually restore all things, so people think it IS dangerous to question the teaching that he can't? :think:
Redfin
New member
PastorKevin said:
Since your original question was not addressed to me, I knew of no obligation to answer it.
You responded twice, PK, but you did not answer my question.
You still haven't. I noticed Poly decided to back off as well.
There is no lie on my part. The posts are there for all to see.
PastorKevin said:
Your two off-question responses do not add up to even one answer in this case.
And if the vehemence of a response indicates the relevance of the point I made, then your two most recent responses to me say it all. :think:
PKevman
New member
Redfin you give yourself way too much credit. But then again, Universalists are some of the most arrogant of the false teaching groups that I have encountered. Logos is the only one in this group that I think has any sense of humility, and even he thinks that Universal Salvation is the only possible explanation. I am not exactly certain how I could have more answered the question Redfin. But to quelch your continued false accusations I will answer your question for a third time:
redfin said:
Redfin, it is NEVER God's will for people to participate in sexual immorality. NEVER. God hates sexual immorality. He denounces it throughout the Bible. People defy God's will when they commit sexual immorality. Then they reap the consequences for their actions. Yes it is God's will for them to reap the consequences for their actions, NO it is not God's will for them to HAVE to reap the consequences for those actions because it is NOT God's will for them to participate in sexual immorality. I am not exactly sure how much more plain this question could be answered. I am sure you will reject the answer, but at this point I honestly don't care because I have done everything I could to answer your question, and your own hard-heartedness towards God's Word prevents us from having a positive discussion.
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