BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Salvation is a work of God. He makes you willing. You need to give a bit more credit the Holy Spirit who guides us into His Truth.

Dale when you say God MAKES you willing, in my mind that means He forces you to get saved. I think if you polled a hundred people who had never read this thread or never heard of Universalism, all 100 would say that what you said equates to God forcing people to be saved. So you act as if I misrepresented you, when in fact that is what I actually believe you were saying. If I got it wrong, maybe you should evaluate how you are communicating it and what you are communicating. Maybe then we could have a positive discussion on this issue.

To answer your question about the Apostle Paul, all through the Bible we see man being given a choice to serve God or reject God. Paul had the same choice as any other man, and nowhere do we see his choice being taken away. In fact, lest we forget, Paul THOUGHT up to that point he had been serving God in what he was doing. He was a devoutly religious Jew and was considered one of the great leaders of his religion at the time. So God confronting him made him realize he had been doing wrong. Paul repented and the rest is history! So please don't make it out as if Paul was serving some wicked pagan God. He thought he was serving God and thought he was doing right.

God knew that He could use Paul and He confronted Paul.

 

[Redfin]

Redfin, it is NEVER God's will for people to participate in sexual immorality. NEVER. God hates sexual immorality. He denounces it throughout the Bible. People defy God's will when they commit sexual immorality. Then they reap the consequences for their actions. Yes it is God's will for them to reap the consequences for their actions, NO it is not God's will for them to HAVE to reap the consequences for those actions because it is NOT God's will for them to participate in sexual immorality. I am not exactly sure how much more plain this question could be answered. I am sure you will reject the answer, but at this point I honestly don't care because I have done everything I could to answer your question, and your own hard-heartedness towards God's Word prevents us from having a positive discussion.

PK, thank you for your answer. I do not reject it as the answer to your question!

Perhaps if I rephrase my question, we can break through.

While indeed "it is NEVER God's will for people to participate in sexual immorality. NEVER..."

...is it nevertheless God's will to allow it to happen?

I am sincerely trying to reach you here.

 

[PKevman]

PK, thank you for your answer. I do not reject it as the answer to your question!

Perhaps if I rephrase my question, we can break through.

While indeed "it is NEVER God's will for people to participate in sexual immorality. NEVER..."

...is it nevertheless God's will to allow it to happen?

I am sincerely trying to reach you here.

Redfin. God wills that people abstain from sexual immorality. Period. He allows it to happen because people have a will of their own and can make their own choices. Maybe I can answer what I think is your question another way: God allows everything that happens to happen. The question is somewhat flawed honestly to me, because God hates immorality with a passion! The fact that it does happen proves that people can violate the will of God!
Does that better explain my stance for you?

 

[PKevman]

God will not save someone who doesn't want to be saved and who rejects Him. That person only faces judgment, not grace!

 

[Redfin]

Redfin. God wills that people abstain from sexual immorality. Period. He allows it to happen because people have a will of their own and can make their own choices. Maybe I can answer what I think is your question another way: God allows everything that happens to happen. The question is somewhat flawed honestly to me, because God hates immorality with a passion! The fact that it does happen proves that people can violate the will of God!
Does that better explain my stance for you?

Yes, it does. :thumb:

And I appreciate your stating here that the question may be flawed rather than the questioner. But since I "threw the first stone," I offer my apology (once again). :cheers:

My answer very simply is like the one I gave to Poly's example. I believe that on one level, it is God's will to allow sin. Even sin fits into His greater plan, just as does the consequent suffering.

Now I'll have to go back about 3 pages to recall why I wanted to make the point in the first place! :ha:

 

[PKevman]

And I appreciate your stating here that the question may be flawed rather than the questioner.

Ok no problem.

But since I "threw the first stone," I offer my apology (once again). :cheers:

Ok apology accepted. I am not an unreasonable person, I just will not compromise on Biblical truth, and I don't appreciate being accused of not answering a question when I had answered it twice. So if you can avoid that kind of debate style and just deal with me directly it would go a long way to avoiding these kinds of situations in the future. I always answer honestly to the best of my knowledge what the question is asking. I don't have ulterior motives in my answers (although I do often ask a question that is intended to reach a certain goal-but that is to make people think logically about their positions and to see if their positions hold true).

My answer very simply is like the one I gave to Poly's example. I believe that it is, on one level, God's will is to allow sin. Even sin fits into His greater plan, just as does the consequent suffering.

I disagree wholeheartedly in that I don't believe that sin or suffering were EVER part of God's ORIGINAL plan for the world. I believe that God repeatedly throughout Scripture makes it clear how much of an affront sin is to Him, and if it were not for His great love and patience, the world would already have been judged long ago. God's holding back His hand of judgment is a result of His great love and His desire to see as many that will come to Him be saved.

Now I'll have to go back about 3 pages to recall why I wanted to make the point in the first place! :ha:

:chuckle:

 

[Redfin]

I disagree wholeheartedly in that I don't believe that sin or suffering were EVER part of God's ORIGINAL plan for the world.

Sounds like a topic for another thread. :think:

 

[PKevman]

Sounds like a topic for another thread. :think:

See: Open vs Settled views..........

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh...were you ever trash?

Yep. I was part of those who did not believe and was condemned already.

Were you always a believer?

Like Paul, I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Now...why do you feel compelled on insisting that unbelievers must remain unbelievers forever?

I'm not insisting anything. I'm pointing out the fact that men have hated God almost from the beginning. Some folks just don't want to be with God. Why do you insist they maybe/might/could ever want to?

God NEVER will compromise with sin, Nineveh.
They will not "get their own way"...because it is the way of death.

Yes. It is. But you didn't want to talk about death. Do you want to now?

Wouldn't it be great if no-one hated God? Is that ever going to be possible? Why is God all in all thought to be so damn dangerous to so many?

Yes! It would be wonderful if no one hated God. But God knows there are those who do and He made provisions for them.

 

[Nineveh]

This self- and other-hatred is one of the "traits" I've noticed in proponents of eternal torment.

Oddly enough, God tells us to Love Him above all. That means we believe what He has to say. He tells us men tend toward evil, which should be pretty obvious just by picking up a newspaper. He continues on to tell us we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Perhaps buddhists see all the crime in the world as a manifestation of love?

 

[BurntOffering]

So I guess when God said to Adam the day you eat of the Tree ye shall surely die, sin and suffering were not a part of God's original plan Pastor Kev? Think again God knew what Adam would do and not all along, but gave adam a choice and a consequence.

Peace out

 

[logos_x]

I'm not insisting anything. I'm pointing out the fact that men have hated God almost from the beginning. Some folks just don't want to be with God. Why do you insist they maybe/might/could ever want to?

Because THAT is what Salvation IS.

 

[dale]

Confused: "I agree the law was a tutor used to bring us to Christ" yet, " I just don't believe it showed the way out of our problem". Which is it?

Two things need to happen for one to be redeemed. 1) We need to know we are lost. 2) We need to know how to remedy it. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ in that it taught us #1, our problem. One cannot come to Christ seeking forgiveness without first realizing they are indeed lost. What it didn't do was #2, solve the problem that it tutored us about. The solution to the problem, that the law did not explain, was trusting in the sacrificial death of The Savior. If the law, written on our hearts, had indeed pointed to the solution I see no reason Paul would have said: "And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"

Ok... and?

That was in support of my post #3304 where I said: "If God was doing the convincing He could make you want to do anything... like that king that God made to graze like a cow." Understand?

 

[Nineveh]

Because THAT is what Salvation IS.

But not everyone wants it.

Recall John 3:18?

 

[logos_x]

But not everyone wants it.

Recall John 3:18?

That can change...just as it has for those that do want it.

 

[Nineveh]

Two things need to happen for one to be redeemed. 1) We need to know we are lost. 2) We need to know how to remedy it. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ in that it taught us #1, our problem. One cannot come to Christ seeking forgiveness without first realizing they are indeed lost. What it didn't do was #2, solve the problem that it tutored us about. The solution to the problem, that the law did not explain, was trusting in the sacrificial death of The Savior. If the law, written on our hearts, had indeed pointed to the solution I see no reason Paul would have said: "And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"

I guess that "brings us to Christ" part was Paul foolin' with us then. Speaking of those who hear the Gospel and hear God's Law as written in the OT, one can see the whole Law points to Christ. Did you want to get into those who do not get to hear? Paul talks about those people too. They are judged by their conscience (Rom 2).

Instead of just yanking that one verse out of context. You might try to see that Paul is speaking to Israel. Who more than they did hear... and reject? V 19: "But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:..."

That was in support of my post #3304 where I said: "If God was doing the convincing He could make you want to do anything... like that king that God made to graze like a cow." Understand?

And my reply back then was, "you mean like pharaoh?" Understand?

 

[Nineveh]

That can change...just as it has for those that do want it.

How long does God have to wait until it's ok with you, until you are satified some just do not want to be with Him? Forever? Sorry... "age during"?

 

[PKevman]

That can change...just as it has for those that do want it.

Agreed, if and when they choose to humble themselves before God and if they make that choice before this life ends! Once you die there are no other choices, your eternal destination is determined by that choice you made in THIS life!

Hebrews 9:24-28 spells this out for us well:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

There are NO second chances after you die, else Christ would have to be crucified all over again for each person that would be getting saved! AS IT IS APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT, SO CHRIST WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY!

Sorry for the bold, but this is a critical point to emphasize!

 

[Ecumenicist]

Nin said:

I'm not insisting anything. I'm pointing out the fact that men have hated God almost from the beginning. Some folks just don't want to be with God. Why do you insist they maybe/might/could ever want to?

That question would work based on Tom Sawyer theology. He thought hell had to be more
fun than sitting around on clouds playing a harp for all eternity.

But he made that choice based on incomplete information, which happened to be the best that
Aunt Polly could offer.

I don't believe that anyone given full and complete information about the loving and
merciful nature of God would reject being with God. Just like Tom Sawyer, any rejection
of God is based on false or incomplete information.

Like Eternal Torment, which causes people to reject God, as has been witnessed to here
in this thread.

 

[logos_x]

How long does God have to wait until it's ok with you, until you are satified some just do not want to be with Him? Forever? Sorry... "age during"?

You are missing the point.

Even faith is a gift, Nineveh.

Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
(John 12:32 KJV)

That some are excluded durng various ages that are not endless does not diminish the effectiveness of Grace.

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:7-9 KJVR)

We should at least have that kind of hope...even if we can't say we have faith that the outcome will be well for both God and mankind.