BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Again, Jesus said in John 8:24:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Was Jesus lying when He said this? Or will those who do not believe in fact die in their sins?

Kevin, nobody is refuting that. No one has even suggested otherwise.

Eternal torment says that is a permanant situation or condition for all future time no matter what.
Ultimate Salvation says that it is not eternally imposed as a permanant condition and that any judgements are in line with God's desire to redeem, that they are purposful...not insatiable wrath without any grace forever.

Death is not the end of Christ's work, it doesn't nullify what has been accomplished, and is not the end of any hope at all forever.

These do not live throughout the Kingdom Age...they are not and will not be included during that age...they remain dead. No hope for them then during that age.

They are raised sometime after the Kingdom Age...THEN judged.
If their name has not been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life...then what?
Those that are not in the Lamb's book of life are cast into the second death. This is a terrible judgment, it should not be denied that it is. But it isn't terrible because of an unending duration.

The tree of life is again revealed AFTER all of this. The Bible associates the ability to live forever with this "tree of life", and also "for the healing of the nations."

In the last capter of the Book...the Lord says "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to recompense every one according to his work. I am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Commencement and the Completion. Blessed are they who do his commandments (other versions have "wash their robes clean"), that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Without [will be] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and manslayers, and idolaters, and every one that loveth and doeth falsehood. I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things before the churches. I am the root and offspring of David: like the splendid star of the morning. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come thou. And let him that heareth, say, Come thou. And let him who thirsteth, come; and he that is inclined, let him take the living water gratis.
(Rev 22:12-17 Murdock)

Can you not see it? They can STILL "do His commandments, wash their robes clean, and in this have a right to the tree of life and enter in through these gates and into that city.

Who needs to enter in through the gates into the city except those left outside? And, just who are outside...but those in the second death?
Here, grace is in full swing toward all people, and the invitation...rather than having ended at their death for all future time...is then offered to "whosoever will" who hear, anyone who is thirsty...anyone who is inclined...to take the water of life, free and without payment.

Would not this, which would end any torment for them, be welcome news? Will they continually reject it forever?

Somehow...I doubt they would.

Now..if you ask me, once again...where the scriptures are that say they "get out"...I just showed you where it is explicitly described. The ONLY way you could not see it is if you believe in permanent unending torment and thereby close your eyes to what is being described here..and when this happens.

Have a wonderful night!

 

[Nineveh]

So...oneself saves oneself, then?

That's not what you asked.

"If you have the possibility of salvation removed..what removes it?" It's called rejection, which is within the right of a freewill agent.

That is the implication...if oneself, a slave to sin, lost, hopeless without Christ...has only oneself to blame for winding up in another hopeless situation...then it is oneself who can claim some merit and take credit for being saved if they are saved.

Sure. If you want to ingore everything God, John and Paul has to say, I guess you could see it that way. "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...", " “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Unless you want to argue God removes our freewill, which you tend to shy away from, we have freewill to accept or reject Christ.

Simply put...it isn't eternal in duration...

That must be in Logos 13:6.

 

[Nineveh]

The Holy Spirit.

He has both persuaded and enabled me to do so, of my own free will.

But we can not make the mistake of believing the Holy Spirit guides those who have rejected Christ. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, He doesn't come in uninvited.

This is the sort of thing that makes me very sad for you.

Why? It's not my false gospel of comfort.

You have ears, but you cannot hear.

Rather, I test the spirits to see if they are from God.

 

[Nineveh]

I missed the part of the conversation where we started using "age-during"? I'm not sure what it mean...

That's the whole point. No one know it means, it's not a word or phrase we have a definition to because it doesn't exist. "age-during"... that's the esoteric non definable time frame logos wants to call "forever".

 

[Nineveh]

If God's judgment is not in fact final, then the following Scripture verses make no sense:

Daniel 12:2

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

:wave2: :duh: PK!

That should read "...Some to age during life, Some to shame and age during contempt."

And that doesn't say those in age during shame and contempt can't repent at some undefined point in the future. Because God is beholden to the unis to keep an eye open for anyone who may decide to eventually repent... someday... maybe.... or not....

(I hope you read that with a great big dose of sarcasm )

 

[logos_x]

:wave2: :duh: PK!

That should read "...Some to age during life, Some to shame and age during contempt."

And that doesn't say those in age during shame and contempt can't repent at some undefined point in the future. Because God is beholden to the unis to keep an eye open for anyone who may decide to eventually repent... someday... maybe.... or not....

(I hope you read that with a great big dose of sarcasm )

Nineveh,

Words that do not mean "everlasting" should not be translated "everlasting" if by "everlasting" you think of what we think of today as "eternal".

It isn't that God is beholden to anything..except His Word, because He does not lie.

He is not beholden to the "unis" any more than He is to "ETers".

If you want to mock...I really think it is counterproductive to mock the need for an accurate translation of God's Word.


Now...look at Kevin's argument..."If God's judgment is not in fact final, then the following Scripture verses make no sense"...He then says that the scripture makes sense only if what is described there is the final outcome...and that final outcome must BE everlasting...meaning "eternal" for all future existance, and the reason His argument falls short is because the words translated "everlasting" don't mean everlasting. They are TIME words, meaning "age" or "eon".

It is not PROOF of eternal torment when it is based upon translating words that don't mean ALL future time for all eternity.

 

[logos_x]

That's not what you asked.

"If you have the possibility of salvation removed..what removes it?" It's called rejection, which is within the right of a freewill agent.



Sure. If you want to ingore everything God, John and Paul has to say, I guess you could see it that way. "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...", " “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Unless you want to argue God removes our freewill, which you tend to shy away from, we have freewill to accept or reject Christ.

Where have I undone freewill? I'm saying that, if eternal torment is true...freewill means nothing, once there and in that situation or condition.
Now, I understand, some choices we make will have very far reaching consequences. But, eternal torment makes any change either impossible or futile...and that is what YOU want to shy away from. If Hell is proof of how seriously God takes free-will...why would it stop free-will from having any effect?

The only systematic theology that leaves free will intact is one that views judgements in a way designed to make choices, not one that makes it impossible to do so, or one that would make any choices pointless.

 

[PKevman]

Where have I undone freewill? I'm saying that, if eternal torment is true...freewill means nothing, once there and in that situation or condition.
Now, I understand, some choices we make will have very far reaching consequences. But, eternal torment makes any change either impossible or futile...and that is what YOU want to shy away from. If Hell is proof of how seriously God takes free-will...why would it stop free-will from having any effect?

The only systematic theology that leaves free will intact is one that views judgements in a way designed to make choices, not one that makes it impossible to do so, or one that would make any choices pointless.

The answer to this objection is that man has complete freedom to choose or reject God and will face the consequence or reward of that choice once he dies. After death, the option of choosing to follow Christ is removed. While free will exists for all eternity, to some extent, God's judgment of the wicked is as final as the sealed and redeemed child of God. If one rejects Jesus Christ and exits this life, his free will to accept Christ vanishes for all eternity. This life is the only chance we have. That is why the Scripture REPEATEDLY say NOW is the time to choose!

 

[logos_x]

The answer to this objection is that man has complete freedom to choose or reject God and will face the consequence or reward of that choice once he dies. After death, the option of choosing to follow Christ is removed. While free will exists for all eternity, to some extent, God's judgment of the wicked is as final as the sealed and redeemed child of God. If one rejects Jesus Christ and exits this life, his free will to accept Christ vanishes for all eternity. This life is the only chance we have. That is why the Scripture REPEATEDLY say NOW is the time to choose!

I, of course, disagree.

I don't think Christ suddenly becomes a Calvinist toward those who have died...and the scriptural support for such a theological construct represents a matter of interpretation comparable to the ones a Calvinist would make.

I believe now is an excellent time to choose. This does not, though, negate the ability to choose for all future time once one dies. The logic behind that concept is, at best, very loose and sketchy.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Ah I took the ignore off long enough just to check in with what you were saying. Guess what Dave. You make a valid point! IF I were in fact doing what you said, you would have a good point indeed. But I am not pretending those verses don't exist. They do in fact exist. Both sets of verses are true Dave, and I affirm this truth!

I agree wholeheartedly!

Do you know HOW God hardened Pharaohs heart? I hate to sound as if I'm nitpicking Dave, but how can you be on this site debating my knowledge of the verses that speak of Pharaoh, when you don't even spell Pharaoh right?
Still, how did God harden Pharaoh's heart? By working miracles Dave. That's how!

To quote my friend and brother Bob Enyart from his manuscript "The Plot":

"God didn't sprinkle magic dust onto Pharaoh's heart to harden it. All God did was shove His great power in Pharaoh's face, and Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Great signs and wonders from God resulted in Pharaoh's hard heart."

Great, you and Enyart both rewrite scripture to prove your points.

Scripture says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, and the Pharaoh hardened
his own heart. Literal when you want, metaphorical when you want. God hardened his heart, just as God softened Paul's heart, or do you deny that also?

Bob further expounds with this:

"The Bible says both that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (see Ex 8:15,32;9:34-35) and it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart; and it also says simply that Pharaoh's heart "grew hard".
Thus Pharaoh hardened his own heart when God performed great miracles for him to see. So how did God harden Pharaoh's heart? He did it with miracles!"

Well said Bob!

So God did the miracle, but he didn't? Do you guys even know the story? God did each
miracle, which scared pharaoh, which turned him around. Then afterwards, God hardened
his heart again. Pharaoh's response to God's raw power was in fact repentence, if you
care to go by scripture. The second miracle in each case was to re-harden his heart.

To minimize, and even ridicule God's power portrayed in Scripture by claiming "magic dust"
is arrogance.

Amen! But God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart by somehow entering it and making it hard, or adding a hardening compound like epoxy. As explained above, Pharaoh hardened his own heart when God worked miracles. End of story.

So, if you can't figure it out, it can't be true? How did God appear as a bush not consumed by
fire? Spray flame retardent and epoxy and a carefully concelad gas pocket, then
holographically project His voice? Once again, arrogance.

REALLY? Sorry you feel that way. I love Scripture and I love God with all of my heart. My life is based around Scripture, not just on my feelings of what I think Scripture OUGHT to say! It's kind of a hollow accusation of you to accuse me of having a narrow view of Scripture when you could not (or would not) even answer a simple question asked of you pages ago about how we are to deal with sexually immoral people within the church today, even though Scripture PLAINLY outlines this for us! Mighty hollow indeed Mr. Miller!

I'll say this for you, your faith is not narrow, its creative. More than just ignoring some
passages, rewriting them.

Right so we are back to the doctrine of God MAKES people get saved!

Has the ability to heal...

Straw man argument Dave. Nobody said man's will is more powerful than God's will. Will is not necessarily about power. Will is simply the ability to decide otherwise.

So God simply chose to not not create the Universe?

And God does not violate the will that He gave man in the sense of choosing or rejecting a relationship with Him.

Once again, scripture please. Show me the scripture that says God gave humanity
free will, over and above God's Will.

[/QUOTE]

Say Dave, if God has a will to punish sinners from out of His presence for all eternity, does He have the power and the ability to follow through with that will? A yes or no would suffice![/QUOTE]

God has the power to follow through with God's Will, but not your interpretation of His Will
based on rewritten Scripture. Fortunately, God's Will is made plain in Scripture, through Jesus
Christ. God is Love.

Here's a straight forward yes or no question for you. If a human Will's something which is
opposed to God's Will, does the human Will prevail? Yes or no.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Here's a thought:

Taking away ET interpretation is threatening to those who use those interpretations to control
others.

 

[PKevman]

Great, you and Enyart both rewrite scripture to prove your points.

Wrong! We both believe the Bible while YOU deny it! So if you wanna get into some ad-hominem attacks be my guest. I'm man enough to take it! You are a lying, hypocritical false teacher who is leading people to hell!

Scripture says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, and the Pharaoh hardened
his own heart. Literal when you want, metaphorical when you want. God hardened his heart, just as God softened Paul's heart, or do you deny that also?

Actually both Scriptures are literal Dave. Pharaoh's heart was hard because Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and God hardened Pharaoh's heart by working miracles. The miracles were in fact what hardened Pharaoh's heart!

So God did the miracle, but he didn't?

Huh? Where do you get that Dave? The book of Dave chapter 3?

Do you guys even know the story?

Yes well enough to spell Pharaoh right! (Which you didn't do several times!)

God did each miracle, which scared pharaoh, which turned him around.

Agreed! (Except Pharaoh was only "turned around" briefly and then his heart grew hard again).

Then afterwards, God hardened his heart again.

God did not harden Pharaoh's heart by applying some magical pixie dust heart hardening agent! Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God working miracles. Period.

Pharaoh's response to God's raw power was in fact repentence, if you care to go by scripture. The second miracle in each case was to re-harden his heart.

Ah I see. Makes perfect sense Dave! God makes him repent, then God makes him unrepent. Then God makes him repent. Then God makes him unrepent. Say Dave, why was Pharaoh even involved at all?
So Dave, is God a schizophrenic? Because that is clearly how you are portraying Him. Blasphemer!

To minimize, and even ridicule God's power portrayed in Scripture by claiming "magic dust" is arrogance.

Then why do you attempt to prove that which is not spoken of in Scripture. You twist the verses to meet your own little pet theologies. You are a fraud sir. And a false teacher. And the Scriptures speak plainly about your reward! (See 2 Peter)

I'll say this for you, your faith is not narrow, its creative. More than just ignoring some passages, rewriting them.

Keep it up there ace. You will have to answer one day for your false accusations. God knows the content of each of our hearts, and the end results of each of our doctrines.

So God simply chose to not not create the Universe?

Huh? I mean really, where do you get this stuff? It's like the universe of Dave Miller is some isolated zone of whacked out theological ideas. "Hey let's pull a wacked out idea from over there man!" "Yeah man that sounds good man!"


Another classic non-answer:

Say Dave, if God has a will to punish sinners from out of His presence for all eternity, does He have the power and the ability to follow through with that will? A yes or no would suffice!

God has the power to follow through with God's Will, but not your interpretation of His Will based on rewritten Scripture. Fortunately, God's Will is made plain in Scripture, through Jesus Christ. God is Love.

Let's see, I never knew "Yes or "No" took up so many letters!
And the Bible says that God will punish sinners from out of His presence for all eternity. YOU deny that he can accomplish that!

Now I know why I had you on ignore. Because the futility of discussing issues with you magnifies with each post.

 

[Redfin]

This life is the only chance we have. That is why the Scripture REPEATEDLY say NOW is the time to choose!

Except that when the "afterlife" comes, it will be "now."

:think:

 

[Ecumenicist]

God did not harden Pharaoh's heart by applying some magical pixie dust heart hardening agent! Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God working miracles. Period.

Ah I see. Makes perfect sense Dave! God makes him repent, then God makes him unrepent. Then God makes him repent. Then God makes him unrepent. Say Dave, why was Pharaoh even involved at all?

Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

 

[CabinetMaker]

Here's a thought:

Taking away ET interpretation is threatening to those who use those interpretations to control
others.

Could you please show some examples of how ET is used to control people? Thank you

 

[Balder]

Could you please show some examples of how ET is used to control people? Thank you

How about trying to scare people into join your religion with threats of unimaginable and unending torment if they do not?

 

[Nineveh]

Where have I undone freewill? I'm saying that, if eternal torment is true...freewill means nothing, once there and in that situation or condition.

You insist that someone "age during" might come to love God... eventually. God can not ever put evil under His feet as long as just one remains unrepentant. As I asked, satan has had 6000 years... how much longer? And who is to say a human being hasn't come into existence since satan that may hate God even more.

You remove freewill to reject God. According to uni, no one is allowed to reject God, even if it takes the rest of eternity, uni demands they repent.

 

[Nineveh]

Great, you and Enyart both rewrite scripture to prove your points.

How would you know? Firstly, you don't know Scriptures. Secondly, Mr. Enyart had a debate with a Lutheran pastor that sounded just like you, but you couldnt even stomach listening to the 1st of the 3 parts of the debate.

I can understand that though... sometimes getting some of your warped theology back in your face might be a bit embarrassing to hear.

 

[Nineveh]

How about trying to scare people into join your religion with threats of unimaginable and unending torment if they do not?

If you only have option A and option B why fudge about option B?

 

[Ecumenicist]

How about trying to scare people into join your religion with threats of unimaginable and unending torment if they do not?

Thanx Balder.

I'd add to that:

1. Constantine establishing the Papacy to contol Christians through ET, since Eternal Life
in Christ removed their fear of death and accountability to the state

2. There's that whole purgatory thing that Martin Luther had something to say about, buying
relatives out of eternal torment, i.e. extorting cash on the basis of eternal torment

3. Pick any so called Millenialist cult, or denomination started based on "end of world"
predictions. "Join us now and you're in, otherwise, you're out!"

4. Pick any abusive relationship based on "Spiritual" authority, including threats of
excommunication or refusal of communion, or just threats of "exposure of sins" to family,
friends, and God, potentially resulting in both temporal and eternal torment.

5. Then there's that whole thing about literally "beating the hell" out of someone "for their own
good."

Very nice, nicely justified, bruised and broken kids, brutalized gay people, brutalized
slaves based on Divine authority, brutalized "uncooperative" wives, how about genocide
of Jewish people? Inquisition anyone? My own Mennonite ancestors, for example?
Catholics at the hands of Lutherans, Lutherals at the hands of Catholics, radical reformers
and royalty, you name it, its a free-for-all, and everyone's justified based on the ET doctrine.

In general, Divine authority used to control others through the threat of eternal torment
(or "helping them see their errors so that they may avoid eternal torment") is common
practice, and has been since its general acceptance during Constantine's time.

Its evil. Its wrong. Its anathema. Its not God.