BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

It is what it is. I don't think further arguments are going to provide a different outcome than what we have...it will never end, unless we just walk away from this particular thread and move on.

Christians believe that sowing seed is what we're here for. We don't expect that we'll reap anything or even change someone's mind; that's The Holy Spirit's job. We give our reasons that we believe what we do, and look for ways to convince others of Truth, learning more about That Truth ourselves by researching It. Having a hopeless outlook only tends to hopelessness. One sows, another waters, but God brings the increase. Expecting failure is the quickest way to fail.

 

[logos_x]

Christians believe that sowing seed is what we're here for. We don't expect that we'll reap anything or even change someone's mind; that's The Holy Spirit's job. We give our reasons that we believe what we do, and look for ways to convince others of Truth, learning more about That Truth ourselves by researching It. Having a hopeless outlook only tends to hopelessness. One sows, another waters, but God brings the increase. Expecting failure is the quickest way to fail.

Agreed :thumb:

 

[CabinetMaker]

I was under the impression that you think I'm wrong.

That is not a victory.

It is what it is. I don't think further arguments are going to provide a different outcome than what we have...it will never end, unless we just walk away from this particular thread and move on.

It would end if you could post the verses I asked for. Have you looked?

 

[logos_x]

It would end if you could post the verses I asked for. Have you looked?

I have...and I posted them. Have you looked?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I have...and I posted them. Have you looked?

You mean the ones taken out of context? I looked. Did you look at my response?

 

[logos_x]

You mean the ones taken out of context?

No...I means the ones that say what they mean and mean what they say.

I looked. Did you look at my response?

Yes I did.


God Bless

 

[Redfin]

Attempting to offend an offensive and ignorant professing 'Christian' to attempt to shed some light upon their hypocracy so that they don't end up in hell is not only very Christian, it is to be applauded.

That's what Balder was doing! :think:

Nineveh makes a marvelous anti-Christian witness, I'll give her that.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Nin and CM,

Why would Jesus say to "pray for those who persecute you," if it were a waste of time?

 

[Aimiel]

That's what Balder was doing!

Perhaps if Balder had a Christian witness, he might be able to make comments on other Christians. Since he doesn't, he can't. Not being able to even see The Kingdom yet, he can't take charge of It.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nin and CM,

Why would Jesus say to "pray for those who persecute you," if it were a waste of time?

Because Jesus wants those who persecute us to be saved too. Its not a waste of time even if they choose not to be saved.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Because Jesus wants those who persecute us to be saved too. Its not a waste of time even if they choose not to be saved.

Does praying for "them" have any influence their choice making process at all?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Perhaps if Balder had a Christian witness, he might be able to make comments on other Christians. Since he doesn't, he can't. Not being able to even see The Kingdom yet, he can't take charge of It.

The good Samaritan wasn't Jewish or Christian, but he knew God's Will.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does praying for "them" have any influence their choice making process at all?

Yes, the prayers of righeous men has an influence.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Yes, the prayers of righeous men has an influence.

Good!

So prayers of righteous men have the power to influence the changing of unrepentent hearts.

Does God have such Power, or is it the prayers themselves, or is it the power of
those who pray that can influence unrepentent hearts?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Good!

So prayers of righteous men have the power to influence the changing of unrepentent hearts.

Does God have such Power, or is it the prayers themselves, or is it the power of
those who pray that can influence unrepentent hearts?

God works on hearts. OUr prayers are to God or the unbeliever. God can be moved by those prayers and change the heart of the unrepentant sinner. Only God has the power to change a heart.

 

[Ecumenicist]

God works on hearts. OUr prayers are to God or the unbeliever. God can be moved by those prayers and change the heart of the unrepentant sinner. Only God has the power to change a heart.

Does God have the desire to change the hearts of unrepentant sinners?

 

[red77]

Christians believe that sowing seed is what we're here for. We don't expect that we'll reap anything or even change someone's mind; that's The Holy Spirit's job. We give our reasons that we believe what we do, and look for ways to convince others of Truth, learning more about That Truth ourselves by researching It. Having a hopeless outlook only tends to hopelessness. One sows, another waters, but God brings the increase. Expecting failure is the quickest way to fail.

Well I can agree with some of this, however, the one doctrine to bring a literally hopeless outlook is the doctrine of unending torment, ironically it is the doctrine of ET that makes God's sacrifice a failure for most of the world, just about everyone who believes in ET believes that the sacrifice was in vain for the majority of mankind for one reason or another, those who believe in ET automatically think that God cannot save those who do not 'find the narrow path' and that the salvation of men rests on their own shoulders despite Jesus's answers to the contrary to his disciples - and the declarartion of what God himself wills, it truly is the darkest, most despairing and hopeless messge that there could possibly be for many many many people, God fails in his mission, he can do all kinds of things but restoring all that he creates is impossible, he works all things in accordance with the purpose of his will but restoring his own world and all those who have dwelled therein is impossible, he died as a ransom for all to be testified in due time but its actually only some that will be ransomed, he is the saviour of all men, especially of believers but is in fact only the saviour of those who believe, he declares that he will be all in all but is in fact only going to be 'over all'.....
I wonder why believeing that God can be 100% in his sacrifice is regarded as heresy by some, that mans will can somehow thwart God's in all his indescribable wisdom.....
The doctrine of ET is as dark as it gets, from the traditional view to the depths of calvinistic extremisim where even babies get roasted throughout eternity.....and even those who think they would rejoice to see their loved ones and families suffer torment because of the sense of 'justice' they would experience, it is the most unutterably barbaric message in so many ways and love/compassion and mercy are actually triumphed over by judgement, if a man torments another human or animal for no purpose we call him sadistic, if God does it unendingly and for no purpose it is somehow 'just', its so saddening that people would prefer to cling to their own limiting doctrines and limit the love of God in the process than even dare to acknowledge that God might just be capable of reconciling all that he himself creates....

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does God have the desire to change the hearts of unrepentant sinners?

Interesting question.

2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

I think God has the desire but has not put His force of will behind it. "All should come" is not the same thing as saying "All will come". We have the ability to choose.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Interesting question.

2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

I think God has the desire but has not put His force of will behind it. "All should come" is not the same thing as saying "All will come". We have the ability to choose.

In Elizabethan English, will is want, wont is know, and should could be will or want...

Let's try Young's Literal:

2Peter3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation...

If God has the ability and the desire to change people's hearts, then this is what
God wants, wills, shoulds, and knows.

Any alternative makes no sense. To have a hard heart is to have no ability
to comprehend what joy lies in having a soft heart, open to God's Grace.

It would be like telling someone that the only way to escape a fire is through a
particular door, but then refusing to provide a key to open the door, even though
you are standing right next to the victim with the key in your pocket, watching
them suffer.

 

[CabinetMaker]

In Elizabethan English, will is want, wont is know, and should could be will or want...

Let's try Young's Literal:

2Peter3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation...

If God has the ability and the desire to change people's hearts, then this is what
God wants, wills, shoulds, and knows.

Any alternative makes no sense. To have a hard heart is to have no ability
to comprehend what joy lies in having a soft heart, open to God's Grace.

Young's litteral is the only one that translates willing as counsel. A litteral translation does not guarntee an accurate translation because it does not account for the context in which the word was used. A word-for-word translation can cause more confusion than clearity. One of the universalists favorite arguments that hell is not eternal is a litteral translation of aion into age-during. In english, age-during is meaningless. Your appeal to Young's translation does not change the meaning of the verse. God's desire is that all men should be saved but that desire does not carry the force of God's will.

It would be like telling someone that the only way to escape a fire is through a particular door, but then refusing to provide a key to open the door, even though you are standing right next to the victim with the key in your pocket, watching
them suffer.

The only way to escape the fire is to enter through the narrow gate. The narrow gate is open to any with the Key and the Key is Christ. That is the gospel, the good news of our savior. He is the map and the key to the kingdom of heaven.