BRXII Battle talk

[dale]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to logos-x again.

 

[dale]

I really don't know how you keep it up logos... and Red. I'm grateful you haven't, but I just don't know how you can. I'm banging my head against the wall just reading this stuff. They just don't understand what you're saying... plain and simple.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If Jesus never taught eternal torment to begin with, why woulfd there be the need for such an explicit description?

Nevertheless..I've already provided verses in abundance...and you still aren't convinced.

So...once again...here's a few more...

Ephesians 2:8- "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you." Salvation comes through faith, and it has to be given by God...correct?

Correct

Romans 12:3 "God grants to each the measure of faith."
We arrive at the conclusion that salvation comes through faith, and only God can give it...correct?

Correct but, you have taken the verse out of context.

Romans 12:3 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Note that Paul is talking to believers and we know that God gives saving faith to those who accept Christ as their savior. The verse is not talking about salvation, it is talking about humility before God and rightly judging your own actions.

1 Timothy 4:10: "God is the Savior of all mankind."

So...to be the Savior of all mankind, He has to save all mankind...correct?

Incorrect. Christ died that all men might be saved, not that all men would be saved. Paul was offering Timothy encouragement in this greeting to Timothy. Paul was reminding Timothy that Jesus can that all men might be saved. The wording of the verse makes it difficult for us to interpret today. "10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." Paul and Timothy knew each other well and this is a private letter from Paul to Timothy. Sometimes when we talk to people we know well we use more slang and take more short cuts than we would if we were talking to someone we don't know as well. In short, I do not agree that you have quoted this verse within the context it is offered so it does not support your suposition.

And since salvation comes through faith, He has to give faith to all mankind...sometime, ....correct?[/Incorrect]No. Those that are saved are saved in this life. You add the word "sometime" to your statment to allow the possibility that sometime incudes the time after death. Since this is your addition and you have not offered adiquate support from scripture, I cannot accept your assertion.

So...what would stand in the way of this happening?
Only one thing. An eternal Hell. A Hell that does not allow that to happen...and does not allow it to happen for all future time.

Incorrect. It is not eternal hell that stands in the way, it is our human hearts. The human heart that rejects God prevents a saving faith from entering their heart. Hell has nothing to do with that. Hell is a consequence, not a reason.

So...my question to you is, why would God want to create an eternal Hell to begin with, when He has everything in place to save all mankind...and the only thing that could possibly stop that outcome is to make an eternal Hell?

Because not all men, many in fact, will not accept that salvation. That simple. Many will reject the sacrifice Jesus made for them. If the spilling of Jesus's blood is not enough for them, what is? I would hazard to guess the God knows the answer to this question and the answer is nothing. If God spilling His blood for you was not enough then meeting God will not be enough and God had to have a place for people to go when they choose not to be with Him.

 

[logos_x]

...God had to have a place for people to go when they choose not to be with Him.

Does He?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24 KJV)

If people don't live forever....why is there a need for a place to go?

Consider your answer carefully my friend.

God bless!

 

[Aimiel]

The other thing is that unbelievers are NOT God's children, so the discipline for purpose rings hollow! God disciplines His children (Christians), and those disciplines have corrective purposes. God's PUNISHMENT of unbelievers is not discipline, but judgment!

That's good, pastor... I see a sermon in there!!! That'll preach again. :thumb:

 

[Ecumenicist]

The other thing is that unbelievers are NOT God's children, so the discipline for purpose rings hollow! God disciplines His children (Christians), and those disciplines have corrective purposes. God's PUNISHMENT of unbelievers is not discipline, but judgment!

God created Adam and Eve, and we are all God's children, Jew and Gentile alike.

Even Cain, who slew his brother, received God's Mercy and Grace.

Sarah, who held on to her family's pagan idols, Grace

Hagar, Egyptian slave woman, Grace.

Saul, slayer of Christians, Grace.

If God's Grace is only for Christians, there would be no Christians.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does He?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24 KJV)

If people don't live forever....why is there a need for a place to go?

Consider your answer carefully my friend.

Because souls live forever. Part of their time is on earth in this body. Part of their time is in a place between this life and the resurection with no body. And the remainder of their time is in a glorified body with or apart from God.

Revelation 20:11-15
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The dead are raised and judged. This passage is silent regarding whether that resurection is eernal or not. If we look a little earlier in the book we have:

Revelations 14: 9-12
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

From this passage we see that anyone who worships the beast will dring fully of God's wrath and the smole of their torment rises forever and ever. Does this include all the dead that the see and death and Hades release? Well, since all who are judged are thrown into the lake of fire I would conclude that it does.

So what about that tree of life back in Genesis? What life does it bestow? Eternal life to the 1) body, 2) soul, 3) body and soul? I think it is limitied to the body. I think God created us with an imortal soul that survies our body and goes to death or hades. We are resurected into bodies as eternal as our soul and then judged.

 

[Nineveh]

Right now I'm only asking you to address the one verse...

And I'm asking to you consider all the others in the rest of the Bible.

I repented of my sins, I asked for forgiveness

What... is your witness a secret?

... misrepresentation... 2 years ago....

*ding* there goes another one....

 

[Nineveh]

God created Adam and Eve, and we are all God's children, Jew and Gentile alike.

Even Cain, who slew his brother, received God's Mercy and Grace.

Sarah, who held on to her family's pagan idols, Grace

Hagar, Egyptian slave woman, Grace.

Saul, slayer of Christians, Grace.

If God's Grace is only for Christians, there would be no Christians.

Comfort! Comfort! Preach it dave!

Hey, have you found a god/dess that agrees with you on how a church should be run yet?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Isaiah 40:

1 Comfort, comfort my people,
says your God.

2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and proclaim to her
that her hard service has been completed,
that her sin has been paid for,
that she has received from the LORD's hand
double for all her sins.

3 A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [a] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God.

 

[Nineveh]

Comfort, comfort my people...

 

[Ecumenicist]

God created Adam and Eve, and we are all God's children, Jew and Gentile alike.

Even Cain, who slew his brother, received God's Mercy and Grace.

Sarah, who held on to her family's pagan idols, Grace

Hagar, Egyptian slave woman, Grace.

Saul, slayer of Christians, Grace.

If God's Grace is only for Christians, there would be no Christians.

 

[Nineveh]

dave,
No matter how you wanna slice it, John doesn't agree with your all inclusive ideas. Have you found a god/dess that does yet?

 

[Nineveh]

Everyone but Noah and family unrepentant... destroyed. Nineveh first time repentant ...saved. Nineveh second time not repentant... destroyed. Sodom, not repentant... destroyed. Pharoah, repentant... forgiven, not repenant ... destroyed. Israel repentant ...forgiven, not repentant put into bondage... eventually cut off for a time.

Dave if you need to keep closing your eyes to the other side of the story you really should just find a god/dess who agrees with you.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Everyone but Noah and family unrepentant... destroyed. Nineveh first time repentant ...saved. Nineveh second time not repentant... destroyed. Sodom, not repentant... destroyed. Pharoah, repentant... forgiven, not repenant ... destroyed. Israel repentant ...forgiven, not repentant put into bondage... eventually cut off for a time.

Dave if you need to keep closing your eyes to the other side of the story you really should just find a god/dess who agrees with you.

So President Bush just called for the nation to pray that God would comfort the thousands of
students who showed up to the Va Tech memorial. Its certain that many of those kids are
not Christian.

Will the prayers of good Christians, the President included, on behalf of all those students,
nonChristians and Christians alike be ignored?

Is it a waste of time for Christians to pray for nonChristians?

 

[CabinetMaker]

So President Bush just called for the nation to pray that God would comfort the thousands of
students who showed up to the Va Tech memorial. Its certain that many of those kids are
not Christian.

Will the prayers of good Christians, the President included, on behalf of all those students,
nonChristians and Christians alike be ignored?

Is it a waste of time for Christians to pray for nonChristians?

James 5:15-17 (New International Version)



15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

 

[red77]

And I'm asking to you consider all the others in the rest of the Bible.

I already have considered, and just why is addressing this one verse such a difficulty for you? Please just tell me what you think that Christ meant with his answer to the disciples

What... is your witness a secret?

No, I repented when i was 17, I asked forgiveness for the sins i had committed and the wrongs I had caused others, just how specific a 'witness' are you wanting exactly because thats pretty much the gist of mine

*ding* there goes another one....

This pointless fight that has developed between us ends here as far as I'm concerned, I'm not perfect and I sometimes say the wrong thing but I do not intentionally misrepresent other posters, it seems obvious this is just going to be a stalemate so how about a truce, or that we just agree to disagree and move on from all of this?

 

[red77]

I've heard it said that God wrote The Bible so that a child could understand It, and that you need help to misunderstand It. Seems like Logos_X and Red77 have had a lot of help.

where did you hear that Aimiel? Is revelation so simple that a child can understand it? Many adults have difficulty in deciphering it....Do you kmow exactly what everything in revelation signifies? If its so easy that a child can understand it then it should be an absolute doddle for an intelligent adult to explain.....a ot of the Bible is clothed in metaphors and parables - for a deeper understanding would you not agree?

 

[red77]

I'm not brainwashed, but even a child knows that when they do wrong, they will be punished. It would seem that you lack the understanding even a child has, since Scripture is clear about the sound doctrine regarding eternal conscious torment. Having too many teachers scratch your itching ears seems to have washed away even the 'childlike' portions of your brain.

Do you seriously think that a child would think that ECT made sense? Yes, a child would expect to be punished if caught doing wrong - but it would also expect that punishment (at least in a proper loving family) would be of limited duration and with a purpose attached

 

[red77]

It keeps evil from escaping. Every evil being will suffer in The Lake of Fire, not just most or some. It serves to keep them from bringing any harm to anyone, anywhere; forever. It also serves as a deterrent to others (who hear Truth and believe). Because we're told that hell is real and that we should fear Him Who has The Power to cast body and soul into hell, many have repented and come into relationship with The Living God. You find no purpose in it because you see it as imaginary and false. You need to take off your blinders to see Truth. He is The God of The Living. He created man a living soul. He gives life, not death.

This is ridiculous, annihihaltionism makes more sense if your argument is to stop 'evil from escaping'! Why resurrect the 'evil dead' at all if there's a prospect of '"infecting" others with their sin?