BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Did he?

In this passage, the word "destruction" is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ.

In this passage it is urged that olethron...translated "destruction" points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this was true.... if olethros is extinction... then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, and so "aionios" is meaningless, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration.

But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction.

Take the similar verb apollumi... "to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish." Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. "They shall be changed" (allagesontai).

"the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6 "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25.

Nevertheless...the doctrine of eternal torment goes way beyond anything the Apostle actually says anywhere, including here....making death where a man's fate is sealed, and neglecting the weightier matters... of life and resurrection conquering death, and grace conquering sin, and God redeeming all mankind utilizing a plan for the ages.

The doctrine of eternal torment makes it impossible for anyone to do anything about anything once they die physically...even Christ can do nothing...and God ends up finishing what Satan started rather than destroying all the works of the Devil. It has Him, instead, resurrecting the dead just to thow them into the fire!

Good luck with that. I'm glad the Lord allowed me to see it for what it is.

Allowed YOU to see it? Or the tentmaker author that you just pasted that from to see it? How many times have you been called on posting your own material. Your repeated "apologies" grow more and more hollow. You have put all of your stock into what these people are saying. Do you paste all of this because you have absolutely no knowledge of the Greek yourself? So you have to rely on someone else's scholarship? Because they have led you astray, Stephen.

 

[PKevman]

OK, Aimiel. If you think so, fine.

But...what if he's wrong?

What if the Universalists at tentmaker that you put so much stock in (enough to post their stuff as if it is your own), what if THEY are wrong?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Then God fails to achieve his will, billions of people are monstrously tormented for no purpose at all and sin and evil are never erradicated and neither is death.....

"..then Hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire..." Hmmm, I guess death is defeated after all.

Another question to you, if you believe that the salvation of people away from ET effectively rests on the shoulders of other people to preach the right message then what does that make the sacrifice?

Salvation is by faith in God and that faith is from God, not me. Somebody may hear the Gospel from me, but God convicts them of its truth and gives them faith, not me.

You will undoubtedly ignore this again as you have every time I have said this in the past, but, what the heck. I'll try one more time. Christ took our sins under the law to the cross and died that they would be forgiven. They are as evidenced by the tearing of the curtain in the temple. The wall of sin that had seperated God from Man was forever torn down. You stand before God blameless of sin under the law. It has been put behind God never to be remembered by Him.

That being the case,you will ask what sends somebody to the lake of fire? If all our sins are forgiven, why is there even still a hell to discuss? Because the New Covenant is about a personal relationship with Jesus that changes your heart. When you reject the spilling of Gods blood for your forgiveness you are far beyond an adulteress afair or even a murder. You are telling God that is sacrifcie to redeem you to Him is worthless to you. If it is worthless to you, then you are saying to God that you do not want to be with Him. God will not make you. The lake of fire is reserved for those to whom God means nothing. The number of people there is irrelevent. They are there because of their choice and their choice alone.

And how do you account for ET being singularly the most alienating doctrine that deters people yet further away from belief? Why do you think that is?

People are idiots. If hell is not eternal then we can have our cake and eat it too. Logos has admitied this in the past. If I am willing to do my time in hell then I can be as evil as I want in this life and still end up in heaven. That is sure a lot nicer than thinking that I will end up in hell if I am evil.

The second reason people believe in universal salvation is that they do not trust God to be just. They infer meaning where the Bible silent and then blame God.

 

[logos_x]

What if the Universalists at tentmaker that you put so much stock in (enough to post their stuff as if it is your own), what if THEY are wrong?

They would need to be proven to be wrong.

They haven't been proven to be wrong.

Another point...tentmaker is a tremendous rescource. Why do you think they are wrong straight out of the box.

Is it because you believe the people at CARM over those at Tentmaker?

Just because you don't like what Tentmaker presents proves no more than that I don't like what CARM presents.

Kevin..I present what I believe and present material as to why I believe it. The material is an argument that is believed by millions of people...not just myself or tentmaker.

I view tentmaker as "equal time" that is a counter argument to the myriads of sites promoting eternal torment as though it is true.

Instead of renouncing the source, how about sticking with a valid argument and PROVE, beyond doubt, that the aions Jesus spoke about are endless...something that even Augustine could not do fully. You would be everyone's hero!

 

[PKevman]

They would need to be proven to be wrong.

They haven't been proven to be wrong.

Another point...tentmaker is a tremendous rescource. Why do you think they are wrong straight out of the box.

Is it because you believe the people at CARM over those at Tentmaker?

Just because you don't like what Tentmaker presents proves no more than that I don't like what CARM presents.

Kevin..I present what I believe and present material as to why I believe it. The material is an argument that is believed by millions of people...not just myself or tentmaker.

I view tentmaker as "equal time" that is a counter argument to the myriads of sites promoting eternal torment as though it is true.

Instead of renouncing the source, how about sticking with a valid argument and PROVE, beyond doubt, that the aions Jesus spoke about are endless...something that even Augustine could not do fully. You would be everyone's hero!

Stephen,

You missed the whole point as always. The idea of this is to be a debate site. I could paste hundreds of things from other's websites and say ok now prove it wrong. That destroys the HEART of what TOL is about. I thought you had learned that during the Battle Royale. I was unknowingly answering Tentmaker's stuff in the Battle Royale until it became known what you were doing. I have no problem debating one of those folks if you would like to bring them on here and we can set up a one on one.

The things you say have been refuted already with the clear light of the truth.

Universalism Theology can be summed up by this: :comeout:

 

[PKevman]

Oh and the folks at CARM are too Calvinistic for me Logos.

 

[logos_x]

Stephen,

You missed the whole point as always. The idea of this is to be a debate site. I could paste hundreds of things from other's websites and say ok now prove it wrong. That destroys the HEART of what TOL is about. I thought you had learned that during the Battle Royale. I was unknowingly answering Tentmaker's stuff in the Battle Royale until it became known what you were doing. I have no problem debating one of those folks if you would like to bring them on here and we can set up a one on one.

The things you say have been refuted already with the clear light of the truth.

Universalism Theology can be summed up by this: :comeout:

Kevin, what makes you think anyone at Tentmaker would be inclined to come on here and debate someone with your attitudes toward what they believe and then claims that it's already been refuted in the "clear light of truth"?

What is clear is that you don't believe it...and you think you are doing God a favor by trying to refute it.

I might ask if someone would like to do a one on one with you from tentmaker...but what would be the point except more of the same thing we already have here?

 

[red77]

"..then Hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire..." Hmmm, I guess death is defeated after all.
Salvation is by faith in God and that faith is from God, not me. Somebody may hear the Gospel from me, but God convicts them of its truth and gives them faith, not me.

For death to be defeated it has to be extinguished, the ET'ers idea of death being defeated is to be in a state of conscious existence experiending unending pain and torture, that is not death of any description

You will undoubtedly ignore this again as you have every time I have said this in the past, but, what the heck. I'll try one more time. Christ took our sins under the law to the cross and died that they would be forgiven. They are as evidenced by the tearing of the curtain in the temple. The wall of sin that had seperated God from Man was forever torn down. You stand before God blameless of sin under the law. It has been put behind God never to be remembered by Him.

That being the case,you will ask what sends somebody to the lake of fire? If all our sins are forgiven, why is there even still a hell to discuss? Because the New Covenant is about a personal relationship with Jesus that changes your heart. When you reject the spilling of Gods blood for your forgiveness you are far beyond an adulteress afair or even a murder. You are telling God that is sacrifcie to redeem you to Him is worthless to you. If it is worthless to you, then you are saying to God that you do not want to be with Him. God will not make you. The lake of fire is reserved for those to whom God means nothing. The number of people there is irrelevent. They are there because of their choice and their choice alone.

You are missing the point, you claim that to preach a gospel where eternal torment is not part of the equation could result in people not taking heed and ending up there as you have alluded to several times in this thread, otherwise why ask 'what if you're wrong'? That places the responsibility on the shoulders of men to 'get it right', and do you in all honesty believe that all atheists/agnostics etc 'choose' not to believe and 'choose' to go to a place of unending torment when they dont actually believe that such a place exists? That argument gets more unreal each time I hear it.....

People are idiots. If hell is not eternal then we can have our cake and eat it too. Logos has admitied this in the past. If I am willing to do my time in hell then I can be as evil as I want in this life and still end up in heaven. That is sure a lot nicer than thinking that I will end up in hell if I am evil.

The second reason people believe in universal salvation is that they do not trust God to be just. They infer meaning where the Bible silent and then blame God.

People are hardly 'idiotic' for recoiling away from a message which promotes senseless agonising pain,it goes against the vast majority of people's sense of morality that a God would be a sadistic tormentor of souls, it is a horrific and alienating message with no hope in it at all.... and if the only reason we commit acts of goodness and altruism is to avoid having our butts thrown in a torture pit then that just makes those acts as genuine as crocodile tears, that argument is totally flawed, are you trying to say that all of those who dont believe are incapable of genuine goodness - that most people who dont believe think that they can get away with what they want because there isnt an ETERNAL agony awaiting them? I know several atheists and agnostics who have shown great altruism and dont even expect a reward for their actions.....
And I do happen to trust that God will be 'just', you seem to think the ONLY way that God could be just is to torment people for ever.....

 

[logos_x]

Oh and the folks at CARM are too Calvinistic for me Logos.

Well..thats good

Yet...you believe in an unchangable future in the end...with an endless place of burning torment for most, and the most blessed thing imaginable for some.

I think God meant to avoid this outcome, and therefore took the actions He did in Genesis 3:22-24.

Would you care to explain how it is you believe that people will live forever in torment when He did what He did there...in a way that actually makes sense?

 

[red77]

Stephen,

You missed the whole point as always. The idea of this is to be a debate site. I could paste hundreds of things from other's websites and say ok now prove it wrong. That destroys the HEART of what TOL is about. I thought you had learned that during the Battle Royale. I was unknowingly answering Tentmaker's stuff in the Battle Royale until it became known what you were doing. I have no problem debating one of those folks if you would like to bring them on here and we can set up a one on one.

The things you say have been refuted already with the clear light of the truth.

Universalism Theology can be summed up by this: :comeout:

Then I doubt anything will convince you that God is capable of fulfilling his will, He loses the vast majority of his own creation and a handful are spared in relation to the lost who will suffer and scream through eternity.....for no purpose whatsoever.....
Makes a loada sense.....:rain:

 

[CabinetMaker]

For death to be defeated it has to be extinguished, the ET'ers idea of death being defeated is to be in a state of conscious existence experiending unending pain and torture, that is not death of any description

Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.

You are missing the point, you claim that to preach a gospel where eternal torment is not part of the equation could result in people not taking heed and ending up there as you have alluded to several times in this thread, otherwise why ask 'what if you're wrong'? That places the responsibility on the shoulders of men to 'get it right', and do you in all honesty believe that all atheists/agnostics etc 'choose' not to believe and 'choose' to go to a place of unending torment when they dont actually believe that such a place exists? That argument gets more unreal each time I hear it.....

People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.

People are hardly 'idiotic' for recoiling away from a message which promotes senseless agonising pain,it goes against the vast majority of people's sense of morality that a God would be a sadistic tormentor of souls, it is a horrific and alienating message with no hope in it at all.... and if the only reason we commit acts of goodness and altruism is to avoid having our butts thrown in a torture pit then that just makes those acts as genuine as crocodile tears, that argument is totally flawed, are you trying to say that all of those who dont believe are incapable of genuine goodness - that most people who dont believe think that they can get away with what they want because there isnt an ETERNAL agony awaiting them? I know several atheists and agnostics who have shown great altruism and dont even expect a reward for their actions.....
And I do happen to trust that God will be 'just', you seem to think the ONLY way that God could be just is to torment people for ever.....

All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.

 

[logos_x]

Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.




People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.




All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.

What about this argument requires there to be an unending torment?

Explain this in a way that is in line with the entire witness of scripture.

If what you are saying is true...then why is it that there was no official controversy over Origin's systematic theology that contained the salvation of all men from it's publication until Augustine in the 6th century?

Why is it that, after Augustine, the Roman Church then declared all the theologians that did not believe as Augustine lined out with eternal damnation to be heretics...and later launched into inquisitions and torture to further it's enforcment of the precious "truth"?

Why is it that Justinian wanted "endless" added to the scriptures that supposedly teach "eternal" torment already?

Further...why is it even accepted at all that eternal torment is what God designed as the outcome?

Until these are scripturally answered...there will always be arguments against the doctrine of eternal torment. They will never just go away..but those that believe in eternal torment will accept nothing else.

That much is apparent.

 

[red77]

Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.

Thats a hell of a leap, what do you think the lake of fire is again btw? Not a physical lake I seem to recall, what then?

People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.

Peopl already KNOW there are consequences to their actions, we all suffer for our mistakes in the life we have in the here and now but there's a point to that suffering usually, to learn - develop - mature etc.....We are frail human flesh CM - and we ALL make mistakes of varying degrees, God seemed to know that with his answer to the disciples - left to mans own devices very few would find the right path, but thankfully all kinds of things are possible for God

All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.

The point is that people are capable of good works and altruism without even looking for any type of reward for it, your earlier argument indicated that you think that people 'want their cake and eat it', (as a slight sidetrack that is such a stupid saying really IMO as there wouldnt be much point in having cake if you couldnt eat it but....nevermind) indicating that people think that if there's no eternal torment they can get away with what they want, that is just not true - and that is just the Pascal wager coming into effect if the good samarirtans are only doing it for either fear of punishment of garnering their own 'pockets', the altrusitic works of those who dont believe will still count for a lot to those whom they've helped, and the 'sheep and the goats' applies very much to believers, and it seems to place great emphasis on the importance that works have - and why not? Unfortuntately the doctrine of ET takes so much away from the horrendous suffering that people encounter in the world as it is IMO

 

[CabinetMaker]

Thats a hell of a leap, what do you think the lake of fire is again btw? Not a physical lake I seem to recall, what then?

It is a physical lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that Revelations includes a description of the creation of this lake. I do not think it has been created yet. It is created when God's wrath is released upon the Earth.

Peopl already KNOW there are consequences to their actions, we all suffer for our mistakes in the life we have in the here and now but there's a point to that suffering usually, to learn - develop - mature etc.....We are frail human flesh CM - and we ALL make mistakes of varying degrees, God seemed to know that with his answer to the disciples - left to mans own devices very few would find the right path, but thankfully all kinds of things are possible for God

THankfully God has explained His plan to us. Whether you bleieve what He says about His plan or not makes no difference. God has said what He means to do and God WILL do what said.

As you point out, people make "mistakes" every day and pay the proce for them. You cheat on your wife and get caught. The penalty is a very messy divorce that hurst you, your wife and your children. "Mistakes" are not without consequence. Those types of "mistakes" are also not imputed as a sin against you.

The point is that people are capable of good works and altruism without even looking for any type of reward for it, your earlier argument indicated that you think that people 'want their cake and eat it', (as a slight sidetrack that is such a stupid saying really IMO as there wouldnt be much point in having cake if you couldnt eat it but....nevermind) indicating that people think that if there's no eternal torment they can get away with what they want, that is just not true - and that is just the Pascal wager coming into effect if the good samarirtans are only doing it for either fear of punishment of garnering their own 'pockets', the altrusitic works of those who dont believe will still count for a lot to those whom they've helped, and the 'sheep and the goats' applies very much to believers, and it seems to place great emphasis on the importance that works have - and why not? Unfortuntately the doctrine of ET takes so much away from the horrendous suffering that people encounter in the world as it is IMO

Your opinion, and mine, count for nothing. They are foolishness before God. The good works done by those that don't believe may help those who are on the receiving end of those works, but they count for nothing towards the person who does them if that person is appart from God. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. No works are included there. Works araise from a saving faith.

As for sheep and goats, sheep know their Shepards voice, goats do not. Sheep and goats are not all believers, only the sheep for Jesus knows them. He knows not the goats meaning the goats have no faith maing them unbelievers.

 

[red77]

It is a physical lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that Revelations includes a description of the creation of this lake. I do not think it has been created yet. It is created when God's wrath is released upon the Earth.

I'm sorry but - ridiculous, please tell me how one would go about 'casting death' into a physical lake of fire?! And just how much more of revelation do you interpret literally - all of it?

THankfully God has explained His plan to us. Whether you bleieve what He says about His plan or not makes no difference. God has said what He means to do and God WILL do what said.

As you point out, people make "mistakes" every day and pay the proce for them. You cheat on your wife and get caught. The penalty is a very messy divorce that hurst you, your wife and your children. "Mistakes" are not without consequence. Those types of "mistakes" are also not imputed as a sin against you.

Yes, a plan that contains unbelievably more hope and love than the one of pointless and sadistic unending suffering, you admit we're frail flesh and yet it seems that the only justifiable consequence for you is for all those who didnt catch the right path to be ETERNALLY tormented for their mistake, the next time you burn yourself for half a second on a hot stove I hope you really really really think what it is that you believe requites 'justice'

Your opinion, and mine, count for nothing. They are foolishness before God. The good works done by those that don't believe may help those who are on the receiving end of those works, but they count for nothing towards the person who does them if that person is appart from God. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. No works are included there. Works araise from a saving faith.

As for sheep and goats, sheep know their Shepards voice, goats do not. Sheep and goats are not all believers, only the sheep for Jesus knows them. He knows not the goats meaning the goats have no faith maing them unbelievers.

Then if our opinions count for nothing at all why bother even debating? Are you saying that our opinions are foolish regardless of who's giving them? :think: I'm not arguing that works = salvation, just that the argument that all those who dont believe are 'wanting their cakes and eating them' is a complete strawman, many people who dont believe arent 'evil' in the sense of living all out for what they can get which is what you seemed to be alluding to earlier, as for the sheep and the goats - well - all those who are sent away obviously thought they were believers and had 'faith', otherwise why would they claim to be able to cast out demons? :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

I'm sorry but - ridiculous, please tell me how one would go about 'casting death' into a physical lake of fire?! And just how much more of revelation do you interpret literally - all of it?

God destroying about a third of the world. The pestulance and famine and war. The final war between god and the devil. A good portioin of it can be literal. I think the descriptions of the beast rising up are not litteral.

Yes, a plan that contains unbelievably more hope and love than the one of pointless and sadistic unending suffering, you admit we're frail flesh and yet it seems that the only justifiable consequence for you is for all those who didnt catch the right path to be ETERNALLY tormented for their mistake, the next time you burn yourself for half a second on a hot stove I hope you really really really think what it is that you believe requites 'justice'

I didn't make the rules. I don't think the lake of fire is intended to be remedial, its punitive.

Then if our opinions count for nothing at all why bother even debating?

Because its fun to make universalists look silly!

Are you saying that our opinions are foolish regardless of who's giving them? :think: I'm not arguing that works = salvation, just that the argument that all those who dont believe are 'wanting their cakes and eating them' is a complete strawman, many people who dont believe arent 'evil' in the sense of living all out for what they can get which is what you seemed to be alluding to earlier, as for the sheep and the goats - well - all those who are sent away obviously thought they were believers and had 'faith', otherwise why would they claim to be able to cast out demons? :think:

Its no strawman. Lets say I need money. I know that if I rob a bank I might spend some time in jail. I also know that if I hide the money well enough it will be waiting for me when I get out. So if I am willing to do the time in prison I know that when I get out I will have all that money to play with. Prison loses its threat as a deterant. On the other hand, if I know that I will never get out of prison if I'm caught then the math works out a little different. Ten years in jail is one thing, life in jail is quite a different thing. What use is all that money if I will never get to enjoy it.

Same thing with sinners. If I want to spend my life ignoring God, sleeping with anybody I feel like, neglecting my parents and familly, lying about my neighbors just to watch them squirm, it does not matter. I will do my time i hell and then I get to go upstairs to be with Jesus. Jesus says no. If you spend your life doing evil (hating God) you will spend your eternity away from God. What is hating God? Telling Him that the blood spilled by His son for your sins is meaningless.

 

[Nineveh]

...it is not a forgone conclusion that they won't, nor that they will.

That's right logos. A judge can condemn a person and subject them to the penalty the law demands for their crimes, but subjecting their flesh does not mean their will or heart is subjected or ever will be.

 

[Nineveh]

What are you on about?

The B-I-B-L-E... it doesn't agree with you.

Its basic common sense, true remorse, true repentance is heartfelt, it is not influenced by fear or even a desire for reward if it is to be genuine

You obviously don't understand it because you never experienced it. Just because you have never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't make my witness go away.

What is your witness red?

yes, same stuff, you are a total hypocrite

...said the lying hypocrite.

 

[Aimiel]

Even if the term 'aions' means ages, there's no one who's going to be 'turned' holy by being tormented in flames for thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense to believe that they will. Even if they were, they'd turn back to their old ways, first chance they get.

 

[PKevman]

those that believe in eternal torment will accept nothing else.

Because we accept what the Bible DIRECTLY says, not your long-winded attempts to explain it away. The onus of proof is on you, and the source of your information is corrupt and misleading. It is amazing that earlier you attempted to accuse us of making convoluted arguments, and yet OUR arguments have been based on the Scriptures themselves. YOUR arguments have been attempts to explain WHY you don't think the Scriptures actually say what they say!

It is a consistent hallmark among Universalists everywhere to attack the credibility of the Scriptures. In fact that is a hallmark of ALL false teaching groups. You can go to JW's, Mormons, etc... and find the same types of arguments (albeit with a different goal in mind).

That is because the ONLY WAY that Universalists can get people to accept their doctrines is to get them to believe that none of the translations can be trusted except the scant few unreliable ones that are translated the way they want them to be translated.

You are right. I am extremely close-minded when it comes to compromising on the Word of God. I am not close-minded to consider and study new ideas. I have studied the ideas of Universalists and I for one soundly reject them as unBiblical. You and your cronies continue to reposit the exact same arguments over and over again and the result will always be the same.

Say and by the way, we are still waiting an answer as to why Universalist Greek "scholars" should be trusted over the myriads who have worked on translating the word of God over the past few hundreds years?

Also we are awaiting that Scripture verse that clearly shows the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan, the fallen angels, and those whose names are not in the Book of Life being LET OUT of the Lake of Fire.

Better yet how about that verse that shows HOW the sins of Satan and the fallen angels were paid for, thus allowing them to go to Heaven when the Bible says clearly they will not go there, and that Jesus did NOT die for angels!

How about the verses that show clearly that someone, ANYONE is given the opportunity to repent AFTER they die?

Universalism is a system of belief that rests upon a glass house, and when someone throws the stone of truth it SHATTERS everytime!