Jesus trumps Paul. Also, God WILL BE all in all but some people will be in the kingdoms dinning halls and some will be in the kingdoms prison. God will be over all.
BRXII Battle talk
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So Paul was telling a false doctrine then and not preaching the word of God? Its funny how God is now 'over all' instead of all in all too....
logos_x
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Really? I had no idea that it is impossible to believe what Paul said while believing what Jesus said.
Truth is, no one in the Bible taught eternal torment...and that is the point. The only way that nobody "trumps" someone else and you can believe everything said in the Bible is to lose the false doctrine of an ENDLESS aion of chastisment.
That is the point I'm making...yet you come back with a "Jesus trumps Paul" argument trying to "prove" that Jesus taught that the aions of chastisment He DID teach are endless...when the Greek words actually prove the opposite.
I pointed this all out in my opening arguments in the Battle Royale...it just hasn't been believed.
logos_x
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They do change the meaning of virtually everything... and then accuse US of changing the meaning when we point it out....
Yes, and I certainly dont think that Paul was preaching a false gospel that needed to be 'trumped' by anything Jesus said, I was under the impression that Paul had been converted to spread the word...
logos_x
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The aim of redemption is to let Christ have the pre-eminence in all things. In order to have this first place in all things, Christ must first have the pre-eminence in us. And why? Because we are the firstfruits of all creation (James 1:18). After we are in subjection to Christ, all other things will follow in subjection... -Watchman Nee, God's Plan and the Overcomers
You are almost there. You understand that things will be subject to God. Now all you need to do is relize that those in the lake of fire are as subject to God as those in heaven are.
Yes. Men are falible. God is not. Paul even admitted to not being able to so the things he wanted to do and kept doing the things he did not want to do.
Another interesting thing t note is that Paul did not teach about hell. Paul spent his time teaching us how to live as Christians. So, since Paul did not talk about hell and Jesus did,
Jesus trumps Paul. The way I figure it, Paul knew that Jesus had covered it perfectly so Paul could spend his time teaching people what it means to take up Christ's cross.
logos_x
New member
:think: So...you think that the translators who make the aionion chastisment Jesus really taught about into endless aions trumps anything the Apostle taught...
Amazing! That you think Paul is more "falible" than the theologians and translators behind the doctrine of eternal torment.
I really don't know what to say...other than the unreasoned nature of this argument and all your other ones...which in essence is saying that Jesus taught eternal torment and if someone else in the bible didn't... that's just too bad.
If that is your argument that is fine, but I wonder why you think this way...rather than the much more probable answer is in reality a problem with the translation of the Hebrew and Greek words involved.
Honestly, Cabinetmaker...which do you think is the most convincing argument?
logos_x
New member
Aionion kolasin is endless even when the Greek never says so...
All the alls cannot mean "all"...or at least most of the alls don't...I mean, they mean all when it talks about all mankind being in sin and subject to death, but the very same word CANNOT mean all when it speaks of all mankind and salvation.
The Apostle Paul was wrong...or at least Jesus was more right than the Apostle...because He taught (supposedly) of an eternal punishment while Paul didn't and taught of all things being in Christ in the end...rather than believing that the restitution of all things, spoken of by the holy prophets (see Acts 3:21), is actually possible...
Death is "forever", and yet in that condition they are "subject" to Christ, the resurrection and the life, the possesor of the keys of hell and death, the Lord of both the living and the dead...and the savior of all men...death remains victorious over billions forever.
.....yet the theologians and translators who believe in eternal torment are right, somehow.
They wonder why I remain unconvinced.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Is someone who is thrown in prison subjugated to the law?
If so, does this mean their heart is subjugated to the judge who put them there?
That doesn't answer the question logos. Does a jailed person's heart get subjugated when his body is subjugated. I know why you are tap dancing again, but your fancy footwork won't change reality.
If so, does this mean their heart is subjugated to the judge who put them there?
That doesn't answer the question logos. Does a jailed person's heart get subjugated when his body is subjugated. I know why you are tap dancing again, but your fancy footwork won't change reality.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
When you going to address the point? If it's after you read the Bible, you better get started.
Like I said, you can believe anything you like, but you can not make my witness go away.
That is not all Jesus said. Let's look:
I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Every time you post, you prove me right.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Nineveh
Merely Christian
red has a hard time believing either on some issues.
After you.....it seems you have no answer for Jesus's words to his disciples....
Genuine remorse is not based on the fear of consequence, if you're only sorry for something because you're scared of something it aint genuine....
None of which translates as eternal torment....
You are a hypocrite, you blatantly misrepresented me and havent got the courage to address it
PKevman
New member
Except that it's not entirely true CM when the Universalists make the claim that Paul didn't teach on eternal punishment. In fact the Apostle Paul states very plainly in 1 Thessalonians that the Lord Jesus will return:
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Wow! Paul CLEARLY teaches that those who DO NOT KNOW GOD are punished with everlasting destruction!
God bless
PKevman
New member
While I disagree with some of CM's views, I don't think that is what he was saying. He was simply saying he believes that Paul didn't talk about the subject because Jesus had already covered it. I say that he BELIEVES that, but Paul DID speak about the subject!
PKevman
New member
Aionion kolasin is endless even when the Greek never says so...
All the alls cannot mean "all"...or at least most of the alls don't...I mean, they mean all when it talks about all mankind being in sin and subject to death, but the very same word CANNOT mean all when it speaks of all mankind and salvation.
The Apostle Paul was wrong...or at least Jesus was more right than the Apostle...because He taught (supposedly) of an eternal punishment while Paul didn't and taught of all things being in Christ in the end...rather than believing that the restitution of all things, spoken of by the holy prophets (see Acts 3:21), is actually possible...
Death is "forever", and yet in that condition they are "subject" to Christ, the resurrection and the life, the possesor of the keys of hell and death, the Lord of both the living and the dead...and the savior of all men...death remains victorious over billions forever.
.....yet the theologians and translators who believe in eternal torment are right, somehow.
They wonder why I remain unconvinced.
Because you are believing and propogating strawmen and false doctrine. That is why you remain unconvinced. You say we deny the Scriptures which teach that all men are saved. Yet nowhere does the Scripture teach that all men WILL be saved! You take a few verses and bend them out of context, but you are lacking any real proof that says that all will be saved. God's salvation is open to all, offered to all, and if all received it, that would be great! But all don't receive it, and all HAVE NOT received it, so the Scriptures are right in indicating the final day of judgment that will occur for unbelievers. At the Great White Throne Judgment, there will be no hiding behind false doctrines such as those foisted upon people by Universalism.
I pray you open your eyes, but it seems they are deliberately shut to the truth.
God bless you Stephen
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