BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

While I disagree with some of CM's views, I don't think that is what he was saying. He was simply saying he believes that Paul didn't talk about the subject because Jesus had already covered it. I say that he BELIEVES that, but Paul DID speak about the subject!

I am still learning. I was wrong when I said Paul was silent on the issue. A better way of saying it may have been to say that Paul did not focus his teaching on the lake of fire. Jesus did not focus His teachings on the lake of fire either as the Gospel is not about avoiding the lake of fire. The Gospel is about being with God, about having a personal relationship with God.

 

[logos_x]

Because you are believing and propogating strawmen and false doctrine. That is why you remain unconvinced. You say we deny the Scriptures which teach that all men are saved. Yet nowhere does the Scripture teach that all men WILL be saved! You take a few verses and bend them out of context, but you are lacking any real proof that says that all will be saved. God's salvation is open to all, offered to all, and if all received it, that would be great! But all don't receive it, and all HAVE NOT received it, so the Scriptures are right in indicating the final day of judgment that will occur for unbelievers. At the Great White Throne Judgment, there will be no hiding behind false doctrines such as those foisted upon people by Universalism.

I pray you open your eyes, but it seems they are deliberately shut to the truth.

God bless you Stephen

Well...because you believe this YOU have shut your eyes to the truth. It is eternal torment that is false.

Just look at the convoluted arguments that have been presented for eternal torment. That should, at least, give you pause.

Eternal torment is a belief imposed upon the teachings of Christ. Jesus NEVER used words that meant eternal when using the words He used...at least not what we think of by our word eternal today.

You continue to believe that this is what He taught and disbelieve all the evidence that He, in fact, did not.

Yes, Jesus covered it...and it is NOT what the doctrine of an eternal lake of fire says. That is why Paul taught what He taught...and why the doctrine of eternal torment flies in the face of what he taught so severly. So much so that you are forced to believe that when Paul teaches about God all in all in the end you have to say that means people in eternal torment are in subjection to Christ. That is not subjection to CHRIST, it is false to believe it is.

Concerning the Great White Throne, and the judgement there...it simply is not the end all of all things that the doctrine of eternal torment says it is. What Paul wrote...if it is true...proves this. Only by mutilating what Paul wrote and doing all kinds of mental gymnastics can you continue to believe the false doctrine of eternal torment.

 

[logos_x]

I am still learning. I was wrong when I said Paul was silent on the issue. A better way of saying it may have been to say that Paul did not focus his teaching on the lake of fire. Jesus did not focus His teachings on the lake of fire either as the Gospel is not about avoiding the lake of fire. The Gospel is about being with God, about having a personal relationship with God.

:thumb: Agreed!

 

[logos_x]

Except that it's not entirely true CM when the Universalists make the claim that Paul didn't teach on eternal punishment. In fact the Apostle Paul states very plainly in 1 Thessalonians that the Lord Jesus will return:

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Wow! Paul CLEARLY teaches that those who DO NOT KNOW GOD are punished with everlasting destruction!

God bless

Did he?

In this passage, the word "destruction" is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ.

In this passage it is urged that olethron...translated "destruction" points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this was true.... if olethros is extinction... then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, and so "aionios" is meaningless, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration.

But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction.

Take the similar verb apollumi... "to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish." Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. "They shall be changed" (allagesontai).

"the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6 "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25.

Nevertheless...the doctrine of eternal torment goes way beyond anything the Apostle actually says anywhere, including here....making death where a man's fate is sealed, and neglecting the weightier matters... of life and resurrection conquering death, and grace conquering sin, and God redeeming all mankind utilizing a plan for the ages.

The doctrine of eternal torment makes it impossible for anyone to do anything about anything once they die physically...even Christ can do nothing...and God ends up finishing what Satan started rather than destroying all the works of the Devil. It has Him, instead, resurrecting the dead just to thow them into the fire!

Good luck with that. I'm glad the Lord allowed me to see it for what it is.

 

[Nineveh]

After you.....it seems you have no answer for Jesus's words to his disciples....

And you have no reply to the other 99.9999 % of the Bible showing your error.

Genuine remorse is not based on the fear of consequence, if you're only sorry for something because you're scared of something it aint genuine....

You are speaking outside of your knowledge.

...you blatantly misrepresented me and havent got the courage to address it

...same stuff different post...

 

[logos_x]

Is someone who is thrown in prison subjugated to the law?



If so, does this mean their heart is subjugated to the judge who put them there?


That doesn't answer the question logos. Does a jailed person's heart get subjugated when his body is subjugated. I know why you are tap dancing again, but your fancy footwork won't change reality.

What are you driving at, Nineveh?

That it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to change...that the future, once you are dead, is immutable and unchangable for anyone.

This is not tap dancing. It is the flat refusal to be drawn down this assinine bunny trail reasoning.

A person thrown in jail can change...it is not a forgone conclusion that they won't, nor that they will.

But this is wrong reason when it comes to the subject of this thread...because in the doctrine of eternal torment, it doesn't matter if they change or not...they are trapped and unable to change anything. Either they are unable to change (no free will) or the judgement imposed doesn't allow any mitigation if they do change.

Get it yet?

 

[PKevman]

Well...because you believe this YOU have shut your eyes to the truth. It is eternal torment that is false.

And so it could go on and on....You have shut your eyes to the truth.....NO YOU have shut your eyes to the truth....your belief is false....NO YOUR belief is false.... :wave2:

Just look at the convoluted arguments that have been presented for eternal torment.

Gee I must have missed the convulted arguments in between the myriads of Scriptures that directly speak about the subject....the only convoluted arguments I have seen have come from the Universalists.....No YOU are making convoluted arguments....NO YOU ARE making convoluted arguments.... :chuckle:

Eternal torment is a belief imposed upon the teachings of Christ.

No it is a belief that comes from God's Word and the very words of Christ Himself!

Jesus NEVER used words that meant eternal when using the words He used...at least not what we think of by our word eternal today.

Been there, covered that...reread my answers to it in Battle Royale XII and if you have a response of substance TO THAT please let me know... because I haven't seen it yet!

Concerning the Great White Throne, and the judgement there...it simply is not the end all of all things that the doctrine of eternal torment says it is.

While you say that, the Bible says something different. I will go with the Bible thank you very much.

 

[logos_x]

And so it could go on and on....You have shut your eyes to the truth.....NO YOU have shut your eyes to the truth....your belief is false....NO YOUR belief is false.... :wave2:



Gee I must have missed the convulted arguments in between the myriads of Scriptures that directly speak about the subject....the only convoluted arguments I have seen have come from the Universalists.....No YOU are making convoluted arguments....NO YOU ARE making convoluted arguments.... :chuckle:



No it is a belief that comes from God's Word and the very words of Christ Himself!



Been there, covered that...reread my answers to it in Battle Royale XII and if you have a response of substance TO THAT please let me know... because I haven't seen it yet!




While you say that, the Bible says something different. I will go with the Bible thank you very much.

Good...then you see what I mean then....

Your flat refusal to believe that the doctrine of eternal torment is not what the Bible actually says in the Hebrew and the Greek leads to this tirade, Any rebuttle to the tirade is met with more resistance to the truth that the aions of chastisment are not endless.

It is circular...and no amount of reasoning breaks the circle until one actually considers what the arguments are.

Bottom line...you will not, because you have the forgone concusion that any argument against eternal torment is false. You therefore believe you are defending the truth, while not considering the implications if you are wrong.

You think you won the Battle Royale...and because of this you have closed your eyes to the truth.

 

[Aimiel]

Not only did he undeniably win BRXII, but he wins every round of this seemingly never-ending thread where you re-hash your misunderstanding and ignorance of Scripture and the revelations found in It.

 

[logos_x]

Not only did he undeniably win BRXII, but he wins every round of this seemingly never-ending thread where you re-hash your misunderstanding and ignorance of Scripture and the revelations found in It.

OK, Aimiel. If you think so, fine.

But...what if he's wrong?

 

[CabinetMaker]

OK, Aimiel. If you think so, fine.

But...what if he's wrong?

If he's wrong, no big deal. Hespends his time making sure that people spend no time in hell.

If you're wrong, thats a big deal. People who die thinking they have a second chance only to find they do not are lost forever.

So the question is, which incorrect view does real harm? The one makes sure people can avoid hell altogether or the one that condemns people to the lake of fire forever?

 

[logos_x]

If he's wrong, no big deal. Hespends his time making sure that people spend no time in hell.

If you're wrong, thats a big deal. People who die thinking they have a second chance only to find they do not are lost forever.

So the question is, which incorrect view does real harm? The one makes sure people can avoid hell altogether or the one that condemns people to the lake of fire forever?

Oh..but it IS a big deal if he's wrong. It has God being very much different in the end than He actually is...and is responsible, by misrepresenting what God is doing, for many more people rejecting God than accept Him, and thereby undermining what God really intends.

More people REJECT the Gospel because of the doctrine of eternal torment than for any other reason. It has made more atheists than any other thing on the planet. It has caused more UNFAITH than faith...and it is NOT what the scriptures proclaim!

Is THAT not a big deal?

Now...another point to this line of reasoning is flawed. It implys that what I teach concerning judgements will cause people to end up in eternal torment. I teach the Gospel of Grace. It is a saving gospel, not one that will cause one to be lost. It, in fact, teaches what the Bible itself teaches...if I'm right....and would not be dangerous to people at all.

 

[red77]

And you have no reply to the other 99.9999 % of the Bible showing your error.

What are you on about? Is it so difficult to explain what you think that Jesus meant with his answer to the disciples? It seems clear enough doesnt it? What 'error' are you on about? The belief that God can accomplish what he wishes and his intents to do just that? You cant even address a handful of verses that show your own error and its a hell of sight more than 0.00001% of the Bible....

You are speaking outside of your knowledge.

Its basic common sense, true remorse, true repentance is heartfelt, it is not influenced by fear or even a desire for reward if it is to be genuine

...same stuff different post...

yes, same stuff, you are a total hypocrite

 

[red77]

Oh..but it IS a big deal if he's wrong. It has God being very much different in the end than He actually is...and is responsible, by misrepresenting what God is doing, for many more people rejecting God than accept Him, and thereby undermining what God really intends.

More people REJECT the Gospel because of the doctrine of eternal torment than for any other reason. It has made more atheists than any other thing on the planet. It has caused more UNFAITH than faith...and it is NOT what the scriptures proclaim!

Is THAT not a big deal?

Now...another point to this line of reasoning is flawed. It implys that what I teach concerning judgements will cause people to end up in eternal torment. I teach the Gospel of Grace. It is a saving gospel, not one that will cause one to be lost. It, in fact, teaches what the Bible itself teaches...if I'm right....and would not be dangerous to people at all.

indeed, of all things that cause the most alienation and abhorrence it is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, it can hardly be a surprise even to those who believe in it....

 

[CabinetMaker]

Oh..but it IS a big deal if he's wrong. It has God being very much different in the end than He actually is...and is responsible, by misrepresenting what God is doing, for many more people rejecting God than accept Him, and thereby undermining what God really intends.

More people REJECT the Gospel because of the doctrine of eternal torment than for any other reason. It has made more atheists than any other thing on the planet. It has caused more UNFAITH than faith...and it is NOT what the scriptures proclaim!

Is THAT not a big deal?

Now...another point to this line of reasoning is flawed. It implys that what I teach concerning judgements will cause people to end up in eternal torment. I teach the Gospel of Grace. It is a saving gospel, not one that will cause one to be lost. It, in fact, teaches what the Bible itself teaches...if I'm right....and would not be dangerous to people at all.

Your unwillingness to even examine the possibility that you might be wrong is very telling. Why won't you even consider that possibility?

 

[red77]

Your unwillingness to even examine the possibility that you might be wrong is very telling. Why won't you even consider that possibility?

If I'm not mistaken Logos - like myself and many others already have considered the possibility, many people who believe in universal salvation once belonged to the traditional evangelical school of thought until they saw the errors therein...

 

[logos_x]

Your unwillingness to even examine the possibility that you might be wrong is very telling. Why won't you even consider that possibility?

Believe me..I have.

And...that is why I believe what I do.

I believed in eternal torment for a very long time before realizing I wasn't even sure why...other that the fact that I was taught it since I was knee high to a coke bottle.

I wondered why God would consider an eternal torment "good"...so I set about praying and studying.

At the time I began this I knew of no other possibilities than eternal torment.

I ended up where I am now after years and years of prayer, study, and questioning everything.

The only thing that consistantly adhered to the scriptures was that judgements were not an end in themselves, and that the aions of judgements were not unending. Only then does the full witness of the Bible, and the witness of the Spirit, fit together seemlessly and without controversy.

The only problem is...you have to be a heretic to believe it....acording to the current teaching of the orthodox christian religious system. For this to be accepted, there has to be new reformation, one just as sweeping as the one in the days of Martin Luther.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If I'm not mistaken Logos - like myself and many others already have considered the possibility, many people who believe in universal salvation once belonged to the traditional evangelical school of thought until they saw the errors therein...

So what happens if you are wrong?

 

[red77]

So what happens if you are wrong?

Then God fails to achieve his will, billions of people are monstrously tormented for no purpose at all and sin and evil are never erradicated and neither is death.....
Another question to you, if you believe that the salvation of people away from ET effectively rests on the shoulders of other people to preach the right message then what does that make the sacrifice? And how do you account for ET being singularly the most alienating doctrine that deters people yet further away from belief? Why do you think that is?

 

[logos_x]

So what happens if you are wrong?

What do you mean "what happens"?

Look...people believe this, and people believe what you believe. It has always been that way.

So...for me, I look at the people involved in that particular belief and try to find out what their doctine produces...

The following quote is from HERE...and sums it up better than I could...

...concerning most of those who believe in the salvation of all mankind, most of those I have met who believe in this teaching, have come to this conclusion by revelation and/or intense study of the Bible, church history, language studies, etc. They often are severely persecuted for their beliefs, not by the world systems, but by the church systems. They have cried out in earnestness to our Father for truth because they would have gladly abandoned this teaching to avoid the severe persecution which their entire family suffers at the hands of the "orthodox." We are not masochists. We do not long for cold stares, whisperings behind our backs, hate letters, being called wolves, anti-Christ, and a host of other defaming names. Could we wash away this humiliation and be accepted by our other Christian brothers and sisters, we would most gladly give up this rejection up, but not at the cost of maligning the precious name of our Father. We would rather receive the praises from above than compromise the glory of our Father and exchange it for the praises from man.

My overall impression I get is that these are true believers in the Truth...not those that adhere to the current plausiblity structure and defend the status quo.