BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Nope... people still like to make up their own rules and disregard what God has to say.

Oh indeed....

 

[red77]

red...

In the Lake there is no hope. Those who are lost to it have no hope. Those who are alive now and headed for it are right now condemend already without hope. Only Christ offers hope.

which is why the doctrine of ET offers no hope, dress it up as mich as you like Nin it is a message of ultimate doom and gloom for most of God's own creation, why must you insist on placing limits on God's power to restore?

 

[dale]

Grace was not given to me until this coward was on the floor in humble repentance.

It sounds to me like you're saying that God's unmerited favor wasn't given to you until you merited it through humbling yourself.

I reject the thought that we humble ourselves. I believe God humbles us.

 

[Ecumenicist]

But not against your will. God wnats us to come to Him because we want to, because we want to be with Him, not because He changed our hearts. To be sure, God works i our hearts to convict us of our need for Him, but He allows us to say no. God shows us the gate and the key. We each have a big God shapped hole in our heart put there by the fall. So we can respond to God's calling.

The hardened heart does not recognize God's calling. Hence the necessity for God to do
the changing.

Have you followed any of the recent discussion between Logos and I? I asked him for some passages that plainly spell out that you have a chance to accept Jesus after you die. I gave him examples of the types of verses he should look for. Did you notice his response? He didn't even try. He posted a couple of verses that were taken completely out of context. When pressed again, he walked away from the debate. Why? Because the passages that would support universal salvation do not exist. You try. Can you find a single verse where Jesus, or an apsotle, says plainly and clearly that you can accept Jesus while in the lake of fire? Can you show me a single verse where Jesus or an apostle says the anybody gets out of the lake of fire?

If you cannot find the passages to support your doctrine, do you think it might be time to honestly examine what you believe and why you believe it?

The lake of fire itself supports the doctrine. The lake of fire is the purgative, cleansing,
purifying after life event. This is where the chaff is burned off, so the wheat may exist
unencumbered. And no one emerges, because they pass through the fire in entering
the kingdom. The flaming sword which seperates creation from paradise the same fire that
purges.

Immanent God, which is Christ, casts evildoers into the flaming sword from creation, so
that they may be received by God into paradise, on the other side.

The annihilistic view is that in the event that there is no good wheat left whatsoever, and
all that's left is rotten, corrupted, tortured, self hating, God hating sin, then the entire
being is consumed in the fire, and suffering is ended.

But if there is a remnant of good, it is preserved, healed, and flourishes, and God is glorified.

Amen.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The lake of fire itself supports the doctrine. The lake of fire is the purgative, cleansing,
purifying after life event. This is where the chaff is burned off, so the wheat may exist
unencumbered. And no one emerges, because they pass through the fire in entering
the kingdom. The flaming sword which seperates creation from paradise the same fire that
purges.

Immanent God, which is Christ, casts evildoers into the flaming sword from creation, so
that they may be received by God into paradise, on the other side.

The annihilistic view is that in the event that there is no good wheat left whatsoever, and
all that's left is rotten, corrupted, tortured, self hating, God hating sin, then the entire
being is consumed in the fire, and suffering is ended.

But if there is a remnant of good, it is preserved, healed, and flourishes, and God is glorified.

Amen.

These are baseless platitudes perpetrated by TnetMaker.org and others. Nothing you have said has any support in scripture. YOU asserst that the lake of fire is a cleansing fire. YOU have provided no scriptural basis for that asertion. Why?

 

[Nineveh]

I didn't say that. I said one reason I left Christianity was because the only message I consistently heard, which appeared to me at the time to be backed up by scripture, was that eternal torment was indeed inevitable. And I did not believe the One, the Supreme Lord, would ever do that.

In other words you decided not to serve the God of the Bible. Because not everyone wanted to, wasn't that it?

I have read the whole Bible. I am sure Dave, Logos, and Redfin have too.

Back in my pew warmer days I said much the same thing. ...until I decided to listen to what God had to say.

We're all unique. Your own reading of the Bible is equally influenced by your own predispositions.

They used to be. Then I traded my will for His.

You do not occupy an interpretation-free zone, nor is your understanding of the Bible unhindered by the your own particular limitations in understanding and perspective.

That is why prayer goes hand in hand with reading the Bible. If one wants to understand what God has to say, one needs to open the lines of communication.

 

[Nineveh]

Except its not just 2 or 3 verses as has been patently obvious throughout this entire thread, ...

Right 2 or 3. Did you not understand what I said?

 

[Nineveh]

which is why the doctrine of ET offers no hope,

D'oh.

dress it up as mich as you like Nin it is a message of ultimate doom and gloom for most of God's own creation, why must you insist on placing limits on God's power to restore?

God isn't going to keep promises you make in His Name.

 

[Nineveh]

It sounds to me like you're saying that God's unmerited favor wasn't given to you until you merited it through humbling yourself.

I begged forgiveness. Will you call this a boast that I can brag about? Coming to understand the the Sovereign Creator God of the Universe saw me as worthy of death and being terrified and humbled?

I reject the thought that we humble ourselves. I believe God humbles us.

Of course He does. Yet we can still turn away, ask balder... ask the Israelites... ask Nineveh...

 

[Balder]

In other words you decided not to serve the God of the Bible. Because not everyone wanted to, wasn't that it?

That's sort of true. I decided the Bible was a human-produced document, like all documents. Containing some truths, yes, but not infallible. I recognize that this sets me apart from Dave, Logos, and Redfin, who see the Bible as an authoritative voice in a way that I don't.

Back in my pew warmer days I said much the same thing. ...until I decided to listen to what God had to say.

I don't equate "listening to God" to "reading the Bible." I believe truths can be perceived through deep reflection on the Bible, but as I said, it no longer holds a privileged or exclusive place for me as a "window" on truth.

They used to be. Then I traded my will for His.

Do you think that your preferences and your conditioning no longer influence your reading of the Bible?

That is why prayer goes hand in hand with reading the Bible. If one wants to understand what God has to say, one needs to open the lines of communication.

I agree that one needs open lines of communication, I just don't agree on what constitutes the best "phone."

In my view, the notion of "hell" (as a realm of punishment and torment) is a common human idea with a long history, typically emerging in cultures at similar overall stages of development. It is a "product" of a certain type of psychology, not an absolute truth.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Except its not just 2 or 3 verses as has been patently obvious throughout this entire thread, in any case you've had extreme difficulty in just addressing the one, any answers on Jesus's answer to the disciples yet?

Sadly, you haven't even been able to quote one verse, at least one verse in context.

Obscure versions? Oh please, they're the most faithful to the original texts, the KJV isnt even regarded as particularly accurate from non universalists so enough with that strawman, and its patently obvious to anyone who isnt trying to score cheap points that Logos has offered a darn sight more than what you give him credit for....

Have you seen any of the run-up to the Olympics in Beijing? Here is a story about the bad translations from Chinese to English. To be sure, the translations are very accurate in a word-for-word sense, but the meaning is lost. For instance, mouth watering chicken is translated as siliva chicken. Needless to say, it has not done well with english speaking patrons.

Word-for-word translations of the Bible face a similar problem. The words may be accuratly translated, but the meaning is lost or changed. Sometimes there is no word for word translation available. Not all words translate. Being faithful to the original texts requires more than just translating a word. The context within which that word is used must also be accuratly translated to make sure the meaning of the words is preserved.

 

[logos_x]

Grace was not given to me until this coward was on the floor in humble repentance.

Me, too.
But you missed my point.

Who wouldn't respond to that kind of message...that is if they really thought it was possible? You might know nothing of what it is to be a Christian, or the first thing about the grace of God...yet when the "fire and brimstone" type of message is delivered you might respond to that message to escape the punishment described...not because you understand why.

You might not be responding to God at all...just wanting to avoid the fire.

I've heard alot of the fire and brimstone messages in my lifetime...and you know what, there was always a check in my spirit. I could sense something was wrong...or at least something was not quite right. I didn't understand why until the Lord showed me what the problem is.

Unfortunately...the answer is not well recieved. It was well recieved during the first 5 or 6 hundered years of Christianity and beyond...but after the teachers of eternal torment made their power play in a local council and later declared anything else heresy..and then began their inquisitions and killing those who disagreed with their doctrine many years later...well, let's just say it came to be viewed as dangerous to believe Jesus is the Savior of the world.

Men like Clement of Alexandria, Origen (writer of the first systematic theology in Christian history), Theophilus of Antioch, Iraneaus of Lyons, Gregory of Nazianzeu (Bishop of Constantinople), St. Jerome, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, and many, many more...were summarily considered heretical teachers with the decision of a handful of men, many years after they were dead, for stating unequivically that all evil in God's creation will be overcome by Christ, and that "hell" (though they never heard that word) was purposeful toward that end.

The world fell into the "dark ages" soon afterward.

I believe there is a connection. I'm sure there has to be. You simply cannot dismiss what the Christians believed then...turning so many into "heretics" by a decree that says what they taught was erroneous...and there not be far reaching implications.

 

[logos_x]

Word-for-word translations of the Bible face a similar problem. The words may be accuratly translated, but the meaning is lost or changed. Sometimes there is no word for word translation available. Not all words translate. Being faithful to the original texts requires more than just translating a word. The context within which that word is used must also be accuratly translated to make sure the meaning of the words is preserved.

Exactly!

 

[Ecumenicist]

These are baseless platitudes perpetrated by TnetMaker.org and others. Nothing you have said has any support in scripture. YOU asserst that the lake of fire is a cleansing fire. YOU have provided no scriptural basis for that asertion. Why?

Logos helped me come to these particular interpretations, based on alot of good
scriptural evidence he produced connecting God's Presence and fire with
purgation and cleansing. I understand he gets alot of his material from
tentmaker, good for him. I'm all the richer for his efforts.

 

[Nineveh]

That's sort of true. I decided the Bible was a human-produced document, like all documents. Containing some truths, yes, but not infallible. I recognize that this sets me apart from Dave, Logos, and Redfin, who see the Bible as an authoritative voice in a way that I don't.

Barring Logos, it's not that much different, really. At least you aren't trying to change or ignore what God is saying, you just outright reject it on the grounds you don't believe He really said or meant it. While dave and his buddy want to exchange what God has said for their own personal flavah.

From your witness you said you had believed in Christ. Balder, you are starting to confuse me here. Were you really ever a Christian or were you just saying you were back when it suited your argument?

I don't equate "listening to God" to "reading the Bible." I believe truths can be perceived through deep reflection on the Bible, but as I said, it no longer holds a privileged or exclusive place for me as a "window" on truth.

Anyone can grab a verse or two to "reflect on" a whole new doctrine. It really is up to the heart of the individual what they get out of the Word. Satan used it to his own purpose, it's no different for men.

Do you think that your preferences and your conditioning no longer influence your reading of the Bible?

I didn't think so as a pew warmer. Then one day I decided to put all the garbage men had told me about it aside and read it for myself. After that it became much more easy to compare what men say to what God says.

I agree that one needs open lines of communication, I just don't agree on what constitutes the best "phone."

Not everyone does. Some chose to sacrifice their kids. Some like ouija boards. Some prefer to gaze at tea leaves. Others choose to naval gaze. It all depends on what you are seeking and who you are willing to ask. I was seeking the Truth. I found God was telling the Truth when He said, "I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me."

In my view, the notion of "hell" (as a realm of punishment and torment) is a common human idea with a long history, typically emerging in cultures at similar overall stages of development. It is a "product" of a certain type of psychology, not an absolute truth.

Rather it is common among men because men have a common origin. It differs because men have a notoriously short memory span.

 

[Nineveh]

Me, too.
But you missed my point.

Who wouldn't respond to that kind of message...that is if they really thought it was possible? You might know nothing of what it is to be a Christian, or the first thing about the grace of God...yet when the "fire and brimstone" type of message is delivered you might respond to that message to escape the punishment described...not because you understand why.

You need to give a bit more credit the Holy Spirit who guides us into His Truth. God doesn't forsake those who have repented and accepted Him.

But those aren't the folks we are talking about. We are without excuse logos, those who reject Him reject Him. And believe it or not some just really want the other option to be apart from Him.

What is God to do?

Create another heaven for the ones who hate Him? Why? Let's look at the one those who hate God follow... the destroyer. Satan doesn't have the power or interest to build up or create things of beauty. What would satan do with his own heaven? Any comfort God would provide outside of Himself would be destroyed. Such is selfishness.

 

[Nineveh]

Logos helped me come to these particular interpretations, based on alot of good
scriptural evidence he produced connecting God's Presence and fire with
purgation and cleansing. I understand he gets alot of his material from
tentmaker, good for him. I'm all the richer for his efforts.

Dave you buy anything cheap...

God's gender being bent, God sinning, homoism only being a sin if it's not monogamous...

Yet you just can't seem to find out how God wants His churches run... oddly enough.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Logos helped me come to these particular interpretations, based on alot of good
scriptural evidence he produced connecting God's Presence and fire with
purgation and cleansing. I understand he gets alot of his material from
tentmaker, good for him. I'm all the richer for his efforts.

And again you avoid the issue. Why don't you just post the passages that clearly quote Jesus or the Apsotles saying either you can accept Christ after you die or the lake of fire is not forever?
Can you, Dave Miller, use the scripture to support your faith.

 

[Balder]

Barring Logos, it's not that much different, really. At least you aren't trying to change or ignore what God is saying, you just outright reject it on the grounds you don't believe He really said or meant it. While dave and his buddy want to exchange what God has said for their own personal flavah.

From your witness you said you had believed in Christ. Balder, you are starting to confuse me here. Were you really ever a Christian or were you just saying you were back when it suited your argument?

No, I was a Christian, Nineveh. And I regarded the Bible as authoritative at one time. But when I started to reflect on the doctrine of eternal torment, instead of just sort of uncritically accepting it as true (just because that's what the Christians I knew believed and what the Bible appeared to teach), I began to doubt that it could be true. It was evil in its extremity and mercilessness, and the God I believed in was moral and good.

I didn't think so as a pew warmer. Then one day I decided to put all the garbage men had told me about it aside and read it for myself. After that it became much more easy to compare what men say to what God says.

When you decided to read "what God says," were you reading an English translation, or the original language? Are you sure that interpretation is not really "involved" in what you get out of the Bible now?

I wrote: I agree that one needs open lines of communication, I just don't agree on what constitutes the best "phone."

Not everyone does. Some chose to sacrifice their kids. Some like ouija boards. Some prefer to gaze at tea leaves. Others choose to naval gaze. It all depends on what you are seeking and who you are willing to ask. I was seeking the Truth. I found God was telling the Truth when He said, "I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me."

How did you "find" God was telling the truth about something like that? Do you mean you believed it?

 

[dale]

Jesus proves God loved the world, yet those who do not believe are condemned already.

Correct... until God "kisses" them. Then He brings them to life and they believe.