BRXII Battle talk

[Morpheus]

I forget nothing. Loving God is expressed through loving others.



Repentence and forgiveness are not the same.

Repentence is a process, forgiveness is an act.

Forgiving someone "you don't want to" is not cheap, it is very difficult. Forgiving someone
"you don't want to" requires Grace.

Repentance and forgiveness are two different things. Repentance is the responsibility of the offending party and forgiveness is the responsibility of the offended party. Neither is contingent on the other. We are all called to repent when we sin and we are all called to forgive when we are offended. God may not forgive without repentence, but forgiveness was never intended to be primarily for the benefit of the offender; it is first for the benefit of the offended party so that they can release themselves from the offense. If forgiveness later helps the offender come to repentance and heals the relationship then all the better. Repentance is not primarily for the benefit of the offended party; it is for the benefit of the offender. It is a realization that he was wrong, heals his relationship with God and allows him to forgive himself even if the offended party does not. If his repentance later brings the offended party to forgiveness and heals their relationship, then all the better. As I said before, neither is contingent on the other. A person can repent without being forgiven by the offended party, and a person can forgive without the offender repenting. Refusing to forgive is as sinful as refusing to repent.

Matthew 6:9-15
9"Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10'Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11'Give us this day our daily bread.
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So the Father will forgive us as we forgive others. Do we really want God to only forgive us of what we openly confess and repent? Do we want him to refuse forgiveness for those sins we don't realize because we are either misguided or oblivious, or those that we are too hard-headed to admit? If he does then we're all doomed for none of us assesses our lives perfectly.

Matthew 11:25,26
25"Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

26["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]

Here it says that you must forgive "if you have anything against anyone" so that your Father in heaven will forgive you. It doesn't say, "forgive anyone who asks you". The requirement is that we forgive if we have anything against anyone. Forgiveness of an offense is not forgiveness of sin. Such forgiveness is required even in the absence of repentance. Otherwise how would you ever forgive someone who has left or died. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the offended party.

 

[Balder]

Um... no, not really. Unless you are talking fairy tails.



Most of the time it doesn't affect me at all. I don't lose sleep, I'm not upset. Would you like to answer the question now?

I truly feel sorry for you. If you think the power of love and forgiveness to transform and heal is a fairy tale, and that forgiveness is essentially a "legal" matter only to be extended, formally, if certain preconditions are met, then you are missing out on a vital dimension of life and truth.

Perhaps you haven't experienced this or witnessed it in your life yet. It doesn't mean it's a fairy tale, though.

 

[logos_x]

Really? Paul tells us we are without excuse.

I know.

Paul also said:

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(1Co 15:19 Webster)

 

[PKevman]

I know.

Paul also said:

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(1Co 15:19 Webster)

And what did Paul mean by that, so that we are clear on what you are saying?

 

[Nineveh]

I truly feel sorry for you. If you think the power of love and forgiveness to transform and heal is a fairy tale, and that forgiveness is essentially a "legal" matter only to be extended, formally, if certain preconditions are met, then you are missing out on a vital dimension of life and truth.

Actually, you asked if I've known of such a thing, all I can answer is no, not outside of a fairy tale. I know many misuse it, like dave. It doesn't help anyone, but it makes him feel better, and that's all that matters to him.

Anyway, it's you that wants to put conditions on forgiveness. I keep asking you if anger is somehow a prerequisite of witholding it, you don't seem to want to answer the question.

Perhaps you haven't experienced this or witnessed it in your life yet. It doesn't mean it's a fairy tale, though.

Oh, but I have experienced forgiveness. That's why I hold it in such high esteem.

 

[Nineveh]

And what did Paul mean by that, so that we are clear on what you are saying?

And I'd also like to know if logos is willing to go along with dave on this at balder's expense: "Balder bears the fruits of the Spirit, evidence that Christ works within him." or if he is going to correct dave.

 

[Balder]

Actually, you asked if I've known of such a thing, all I can answer is no, not outside of a fairy tale. I know many misuse it, like dave. It doesn't help anyone, but it makes him feel better, and that's all that matters to him.

Anyway, it's you that wants to put conditions on forgiveness. I keep asking you if anger is somehow a prerequisite of witholding it, you don't seem to want to answer the question.




Oh, but I have experienced forgiveness. That's why I hold it in such high esteem.

It seems the Christian story testifies otherwise:

God died for you before you ever sinned, Nineveh. That means he extended love to you before you asked. His death gives this message: "I love you, I have given my son for you, so that in his self-emptying you may have new life." He didn't wait for you to repent before he paid the price, with a heart brimming over with love, compassion, and understanding: three essential elements of being able to truly forgive, beyond formality.

 

[Nineveh]

It seems the Christian story testifies otherwise:

God died for you before you ever sinned, Nineveh. That means he extended love to you before you asked. His death gives this message: "I love you, I have given my son for you, so that in his self-emptying you may have new life." He didn't wait for you to repent before he paid the price, with a heart brimming over with love, compassion, and understanding: three essential elements of being able to truly forgive, beyond formality.

You are absolutely right! God did everything to save me, and you too

The thing is, it wasn't until I admitted my guilt and humbled myself in repentance before God that He baptised me into His Body. "...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Unil that point, I sounded much like you and dave.

 

[Balder]

Yes, by recognizing your own guilt, and being humbled by that, you were able to accept the love and forgiveness that was already given, in the Passion of Christ.

 

[logos_x]

And what did Paul mean by that, so that we are clear on what you are saying?

I think it means exactly what it says.

 

[PKevman]

I think it means exactly what it says.

Can you please respond to the question directly and then we can talk about it. Thanks.

 

[Ecumenicist]

You seem to forget that loving God is first expressed through obedience to Him. Calling His Word a lie doesn't express love, but rather hate.

But... He commands us to love one another. Loving others is obedience to
His commandment. His Word is Truth.

 

[Solaris]

God will wipe away every tear from THEIR eyes is what it says. It doesn't just say God will wipe away every tear and stop. The THEIR is Christians. There will be no more crying in Heaven. Later on in Revelation 21 it is clear that there are many who will NEVER enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But you would dispute this of course. So let's focus instead on the constructs of your argument and see if it holds water.

If I have a room full of crying babies and I take six of the babies out of the room and into another separate room, and then I wipe the tears away from those six babies does that mean that I am wiping the tears of ALL the babies? NO. Only those six that I took into the room are the ones whose tears I am wiping away.

The blessings of Heaven only extend to the redeemed. In fact the Bible gives a clear description of the Lake of Fire as a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth", so we know that the tears of the unrepentant wicked will not be wiped away.

Could you point me to the verse where it says that the Lake of fire is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth? I have not seen the lake of fire described as such.

You are right in that the story you pose you only wipe away the tears of a certain amount of babies, however, you havent said that you intended to wipe away every tear in your story, I do believe that the 'every' tear means just that, and that all pain/suffering and the old order of things will come to pass

 

[Chilli]

God did everything to save me...

The thing is, it wasn't until I admitted my guilt and humbled myself in repentance before God that He baptised me into His Body.

Wow, good job, Nineveh, you appear to have earned God's forgiveness! So God did everything to save you, but you had to do those last few things like admit your guilt and humble yourself?

Like a lot of people around here, you have no concept grace. Don't you realise that Bible you use as a weapon against others actually says that God grants repentance and saves the helpless?

Maybe that's why you come across as such an arrogant dork.

 

[PKevman]

Wow, good job, Nineveh, you appear to have earned God's forgiveness! So God did everything to save you, but you had to do those last few things like admit your guilt and humble yourself?

Like a lot of people around here, you have no concept grace. Don't you realise that Bible you use as a weapon against others actually says that God grants repentance and saves the helpless?

Maybe that's why you come across as such an arrogant dork.

The Bible is quick and sharp and is the only weapon we have to use in spiritual warfare. All of the other instruments of spiritual warfare are defensive. The Bible is a sword and we are to use it to battle against untruth. Nineveh believes and affirms all of Scripture and not just the parts she doesn't like. It is wrong of you to call her an arrogant dork. :down:

 

[PKevman]

Wow, good job, Nineveh, you appear to have earned God's forgiveness! So God did everything to save you, but you had to do those last few things like admit your guilt and humble yourself?

Like a lot of people around here, you have no concept grace. Don't you realise that Bible you use as a weapon against others actually says that God grants repentance and saves the helpless?

Maybe that's why you come across as such an arrogant dork.

By the way, do you have anything on the topic of Battle Royale XII to add to this thread? If not then please don't muck it up. Thank you.

 

[PKevman]

Does God grant repentance to those who don't repent?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Maybe that's why you come across as such an arrogant dork.

:nono:

 

[PKevman]

Could you point me to the verse where it says that the Lake of fire is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth? I have not seen the lake of fire described as such.

You are right in that the story you pose you only wipe away the tears of a certain amount of babies, however, you havent said that you intended to wipe away every tear in your story, I do believe that the 'every' tear means just that, and that all pain/suffering and the old order of things will come to pass

Why do I need to do the work for you? If you aren't willing to invest enough time to look into it, then why ask me to do it for you? I could post the verses, but you know what, you should make an effort to see if it be so. It would be relatively simple to search for the answer. Biblegateway.com or another such website would be a good place to look.

My guess would be you already know the verses that I am speaking about but want to have something to argue about. Is it your honest assertment that you haven't read verses that talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

 

[Nineveh]

Yes, by recognizing your own guilt, and being humbled by that, you were able to accept the love and forgiveness that was already given, in the Passion of Christ.

I wasn't in the Body until I repented, balder. I know you may want to cling to dave's false hope, but he's lying to you.