BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

Dave is not lying to Balder on this. Balder rejected the teachings of an apostate religious system while being a christian.

That is not the same as rejecting Christ.

Then you agree with dave, "Balder bears the fruits of the Spirit, evidence that Christ works within him." Correct?

 

[logos_x]

Then you agree with dave, "Balder bears the fruits of the Spirit, evidence that Christ works within him." Correct?

I agree with Dave to an extent.

I pray that Balder returns to a proclamation of the Gospel. I think he has brought Christ with Him in his seeking out what a clear message that proclaims Christ would be. I don't think Christ has abandoned him.

I don't think that, when he does return to Christianity, that he would be inclined to accept that eternal torment is true. I'm quite certain that, if he does return to calling himself christian again, rather than buddhist, that he would be more in agreement with the ultimate salvation of all men and purposful judgements in line with God's will to save all men, and not what the dogma of eternal misery insists must be believed to be considered a christian.

 

[Balder]

Logos is right. If I ever returned to considering myself "Christian" again, it would involve returning to a gospel message which does not entail eternal torment.

 

[logos_x]

Logos is right. If I ever returned to considering myself "Christian" again, it would involve returning to a gospel message which does not entail eternal torment.

I hope that what I have presented is considered so that you do return....although you can see that some would consider that a hollow victory.

It's an uphill battle when you mess with the Hell we all know and love.

 

[Aimiel]

Nineveh, I've said before that I never rejected Jesus. I did tell God, once, in a prayer, that I was going to turn my back on all the countless stories about Him, out of a desire to meet with Him more directly, unmediated by culture and human limitations.

In doing so, you rejected Christ. He chose those who wrote The Bible. He chose to have His Word printed and available to you. Rejecting His Word, you reject Him. He is The Word of God which you've rejected. In rejecting His Word you show a lack of faith in Him. You believe He isn't able to speak through human beings. The pharisees thought the same thing, and put Jesus to death because of that belief. Obviously, you have all the 'justification' in the world for following that belief, but it won't get you into Heaven.

Logos is right. If I ever returned to considering myself "Christian" again, it would involve returning to a gospel message which does not entail eternal torment.

That would be a god designed by you, and 'another gospel' which is accurssed. God sent Jesus to deliver men from eternal torment, but those who reject Him will still go there. Believing othewise makes God out to be a liar.

 

[Balder]

If salvation is as you describe it, Aimiel -- resting also on the endless torment of billions, in the company of a being who is willing to prescribe that sort of punishment -- I want no part of it, that is true.

 

[logos_x]

God sent Jesus to deliver men from eternal torment, but those who reject Him will still go there. Believing othewise makes God out to be a liar.

Where, in the Word, does it say that God sent Jesus to deliver us from eternal torment?
He came to deliver from sin and from death.

 

[Aimiel]

Repentence isn't something that is granted, Pastor. Its something people do.

Actually, it is a gift. God grants repentance, and it is very precious. Without it, grace cannot be applied. God even gives us His Faith to believe Him with.

 

[Aimiel]

If salvation is as you describe it, Aimiel -- resting also on the endless torment of billions, in the company of a being who is willing to prescribe that sort of punishment -- I want no part of it, that is true.

I haven't said any of that, but those who are persuaded already of their own opinion will read into whatever they read whatever they want to believe; but you have to want salvation in order to have it. The worst thing in the world we can ever hear God say is, "Have it your way."

 

[Balder]

You've never said that eternal torment is what the Bible claims is the righteous punishment for all non-Christians? You've never said that you would willingly toss people into the Lake of Fire yourself?

 

[Nineveh]

I agree with Dave to an extent.

I pray that Balder returns to a proclamation of the Gospel. I think he has brought Christ with Him in his seeking out what a clear message that proclaims Christ would be. I don't think Christ has abandoned him.

Aren't you assuming he accepted Christ?

I don't think that, when he does return to Christianity...

Please don't confuse the issue with denoms. We are talking about balder's relationship with God, not a doctrine.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, do you know God apart from doctrine? It seems doctrine determines absolutely what you "know" -- or believe -- about who God is, how he is, what he has done, and what he will do.

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, do you know God apart from doctrine?

Yes. That's why I keep making a point about you leaving Christianity rather than Christ.

It seems doctrine determines absolutely what you "know" -- or believe -- about who God is, how he is, what he has done, and what he will do.

I want you to notice how my inquiry to logos about dave's comments about you keeps getting turned into a doctrinal thesis on eternal torment (his personal doctrinal stand). So please don't accuse me of what logos is actively doing.

 

[Balder]

I'm not sure why this conversation has turned to a discussion of me. Though I understand that you are using my example as a means of attempting to expose problems in Dave's theology (from your perspective).

To be clear about what I embraced: I was raised in an Episcopal home. We attended church regularly and I also attended Sunday School. So I was familiar with Christian doctrine -- at least the essentials. In high school, when I actively turned to Christ as my personal savior, rather than the more abstract "savior of the world" that was the background of my cultural upbringing, I did so with the understanding that he was the Son of God who had died on the behalf of sinful, fallen humanity, in order that we might have eternal life with him. I realized at the time that I had not given my heart, consciously and passionately, to him before; rather, I had been taught about him. Now, at a time of extreme duress, when I could clearly see my own weakness and error, I turned to him and asked him to save me -- to be the Lord of my life. I was not a Bible scholar. I didn't know Greek or Hebrew. I couldn't skillfully exegete scripture. But I knew the gospel message; I knew who the gospel claims Christ is (the son of God become flesh who died for the sins of the world). And that is who I turned to. God the Father and Christ His son. I didn't know, and could not have explained, the fine doctrinal differences between Episcopal and Catholic and Lutheran denominations.

I expect, in this regard, I was no different from many, many people who first embrace Christ and become "saved." I was not a Bible scholar but I knew the gospel message.

I give this testimonial because I am tired of the old argument that anyone who leaves Christianity was never a Christian. I think this is a fallacious argument.

 

[Nineveh]

To be clear about what I embraced: I was raised in an Episcopal home. We attended church regularly and I also attended Sunday School. So I was familiar with Christian doctrine -- at least the essentials. In high school, when I actively turned to Christ as my personal savior, rather than the more abstract "savior of the world" that was the background of my cultural upbringing, I did so with the understanding that he was the Son of God who had died on the behalf of sinful, fallen humanity, in order that we might have eternal life with him. I realized at the time that I had not given my heart, consciously and passionately, to him before; rather, I had been taught about him. Now, at a time of extreme duress, when I could clearly see my own weakness and error, I turned to him and asked him to save me -- to be the Lord of my life. I was not a Bible scholar. I didn't know Greek or Hebrew. I couldn't skillfully exegete scripture. But I knew the gospel message; I knew who the gospel claims Christ is (the son of God become flesh who died for the sins of the world). And that is who I turned to. God the Father and Christ His son. I didn't know, and could not have explained, the fine doctrinal differences between Episcopal and Catholic and Lutheran denominations.

I expect, in this regard, I was no different from many, many people who first embrace Christ and become "saved." I was not a Bible scholar but I knew the gospel message.

I give this testimonial because I am tired of the old argument that anyone who leaves Christianity was never a Christian. I think this is a fallacious argument.

Had you said you left Christ rather than Christianity, I would never had said differently. Thank you for your witness. So now I know you to be a true apostate of Christ, you are the first I have met. Tragic indeed.

 

[Nineveh]

If salvation is as you describe it, Aimiel -- resting also on the endless torment of billions, in the company of a being who is willing to prescribe that sort of punishment -- I want no part of it, that is true.

It seems strange to me, balder, that you bear witness to accepting Christ, yet you say things like, "[slavation] rest also on the endless torment of billions". Salvation is saving something from something else (the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.) You witness that you understood salvation, yet it seems to come as a shock it actually saves. What did you believe the salvation you sought was saving you from? Could you please help me understand this?

 

[Balder]

At the time I first became Christian, I believed in eternal torment. I thought that Christ saved us from our own fallenness and from ultimate condemnation on the Day of Judgment.

I know that salvation, as you and Aimiel understand it, is pretty similar to what I used to believe too. It's what the church taught; it's what I heard all my life.

When I say that salvation "rests on" the torment of billions, I mean that the possibility of beings being tormented eternally is literally "built into" God's overall plan -- as it is taught in many mainstream churches today.

 

[Aimiel]

You've never said that eternal torment is what the Bible claims is the righteous punishment for all non-Christians?

I believe that I have not, yes. I do, however believe that those who go there deserve their fate, as everyone does. Only Jesus is Righteous. We get into Heaven because we have believed Him.

You've never said that you would willingly toss people into the Lake of Fire yourself?

I believe that I would do so, although I believe it will be the job of angels, since they would be able to do so without being torn up, emotionally by doing so. I also believe that it will be a very solemn and sorrowful occasion, for us as well as for The Lord Whose feelings are far more profound than our own.

 

[Solaris]

I believe that I have not, yes. I do, however believe that those who go there deserve their fate, as everyone does. Only Jesus is Righteous. We get into Heaven because we have believed Him.I believe that I would do so, although I believe it will be the job of angels, since they would be able to do so without being torn up, emotionally by doing so. I also believe that it will be a very solemn and sorrowful occasion, for us as well as for The Lord Whose feelings are far more profound than our own.

What? You think you could throw people into a lake of fire? I can unequivocally say that I could not, I really think you do not have the slightest clue in what you are talking about, I also wonder if you have actually encountered suffering of any extreme kind in order to have made such a heartless admission

 

[Ecumenicist]

Actually, it is a gift. God grants repentance, and it is very precious. Without it, grace cannot be applied. God even gives us His Faith to believe Him with.

Quotes please.

I recall John and Jesus saying "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Not "ask God for repentance..."

Although, I acknowledge that your interpretation is accepted as a strict Calvanist
understanding.

Actually, its Universalistic in a sense too. God "grants repentence" to those who are
incapable of coming to repentence of their own volition, through the purgative fires
of hell...

OK, I'll accept that "repentence as a gift" is a possibility as well, thankyou for broadening
my understanding.

Dave M.