BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

That isn't the design behind hell, nor that of the Lake of Fire. It is for punishment, everlasting, as The Word of God has described.

And as we have pointed out many times, eternal punishment is sadistic and pointless and actually puts victory in the hands of Satan, because "evil" is thereby preserved forever, untransformed, unredeemed, a vast dark cesspool ever lapping the edges of the Kingdom.

 

[Solaris]

And I pray that (whoever is right) the Truth may triumph, now and always. I wouldn't throw a soul into a gas chamber, in this life, not having the judgement to do so. I would know that the sentence that I was assigned to carry out was bogus, because none of the prisoners have been on trial, much less convicted of anything, other than being alive. Were I to be a prison guard, and was assigned the task of putting those to death who've been convicted of a capital crime, on the other hand, I certainly would do so with the utmost respect for the soul who's been relegated to my care, but I wouldn't give them my 'judgement' of them, or put them down in any way, though a jury of their peers has convicted them to death. I would make use of every opportunity I might have to share The Gospel, while being especially guarded of the ever-present danger of being manipulated or otherwise taken advantage of by those hardened by being the 'outcasts' of society. I would, however, acting under instructions and with the knowledge of the Judgement of The Lord (Whose explicit instructions would be my only 'enabler' to give me the courage to do so) would follow His commands to bring my fellow-human to their final reward. I would also be much more certain that they deserve their fate than even one person who's been convicted and given a death-sentence on this earth, as God's Judgement is impeccable. If you (putting your hand to the plow) want to turn back to admire your own work and not be obedient to The Lord, no matter what He might give you to do; well then, in spite of any evidence to the contrary, you aren't fit for The Kingdom.

This epic monologue does not detract in the slightest from your heartlesness and completely unmerciful attitude towards your fellow man, your words are sickening and no love is present in them, if you believe you can throw a screaming helpless man or woman into a pit of fire then for your own sake I hope that you will be yet convicted of the hardness of your heart

 

[Aimiel]

And as we have pointed out many times, eternal punishment is sadistic and pointless and actually puts victory in the hands of Satan, because "evil" is thereby preserved forever, untransformed, unredeemed, a vast dark cesspool ever lapping the edges of the Kingdom.

Not the edges, since the great gulf fixed between Heaven and hell cannot be crossed by anyone, from either side. I actually believe that the 'location' as it were of the Lake of Fire will be similar in location to those sentenced on the planet Krypton, in Superman writings, in another dimension, which will appear as 'death' to us, since those who've been sent there will never be heard from again and will never return. Evil will continue, since those who've rejected God will never find repentance, they will live under the curse which they have chosen, but that is irrellevant to the life and love of Heaven, the New Heaven and the New Earth, both of which will be un-touched by evil, and will be exactly as God has designed them: perfect. I believe that Satan's sin has reached to Heaven, and that when we see the design of the earthly mercy seat and the sprinkling of the blood that we're seeing a symbol of the real one in Heaven, where Christ's Blood was offered, and Which cleansed Heaven as well as earth of Satan's 'stain' of sin, but since that cleansing will not be complete until every sinner is imprisoned for good, God will then bring forth His New Creation, which will remain perfect, forever. No, the fact that there are those who reject God doesn't cause evil to bring any curse upon Heaven forever. God will bring His Judgement to everything, everywhere, and will put all things in order. Thank God for His Grace, so that we don't have to worry about being punished, for aeons or for two seconds; He gives us Jesus' very Righteousness, and allows us into His Presence, forever; without any infringement upon our reward by those who are punished.

 

[Aimiel]

This epic monologue does not detract in the slightest from your heartlesness and completely unmerciful attitude towards your fellow man, your words are sickening and no love is present in them, if you believe you can throw a screaming helpless man or woman into a pit of fire then for your own sake I hope that you will be yet convicted of the hardness of your heart

If you're correct, then I agree with your words, but, I don't believe that you are. If I am correct, then I pray that you might become 'fit' for The Kingdom.

 

[Balder]

Not the edges, since the great gulf fixed between Heaven and hell cannot be crossed by anyone, from either side. I actually believe that the 'location' as it were of the Lake of Fire will be similar in location to those sentenced on the planet Krypton, in Superman writings, in another dimension, which will appear as 'death' to us, since those who've been sent there will never be heard from again and will never return. Evil will continue, since those who've rejected God will never find repentance, they will live under the curse which they have chosen, but that is irrellevant to the life and love of Heaven, the New Heaven and the New Earth, both of which will be un-touched by evil, and will be exactly as God has designed them: perfect. I believe that Satan's sin has reached to Heaven, and that when we see the design of the earthly mercy seat and the sprinkling of the blood that we're seeing a symbol of the real one in Heaven, where Christ's Blood was offered, and Which cleansed Heaven as well as earth of Satan's 'stain' of sin, but since that cleansing will not be complete until every sinner is imprisoned for good, God will then bring forth His New Creation, which will remain perfect, forever. No, the fact that there are those who reject God doesn't cause evil to bring any curse upon Heaven forever. God will bring His Judgement to everything, everywhere, and will put all things in order. Thank God for His Grace, so that we don't have to worry about being punished, for aeons or for two seconds; He gives us Jesus' very Righteousness, and allows us into His Presence, forever; without any infringement upon our reward by those who are punished.

I was speaking poetically, not literally -- but I guess I forgot who I was speaking to! You take things in a very literal way, as I recall, even expressing a fear once that Satan, if given a chance, might try to "nuke" God's throne and destroy it.

Do you believe that people in Heaven will be aware of all the countless souls suffering in eternal torment, or will they have forgotten them? Will God have wiped out those memories?

 

[Solaris]

If you're correct, then I agree with your words, but, I don't believe that you are. If I am correct, then I pray that you might become 'fit' for The Kingdom.

Being 'correct' on this issue is irrelevant, you have publicly admitted that you would be prepared to throw helpless people into a burning pit, your conscience should be enough yardstick to tell you how morally wrong and unmerciful and cruel that is regardless of doctrinal differences,

 

[Ecumenicist]

Where do you get this, Dave? :think:

Just trying to clarify what Aimiel was trying to say...

 

[logos_x]

Hi Aimiel

You bring up a compelling question.

I'll try to clarify with a few propositions statements:

1. Satan is the ruler of Hell
2. Throughout time the majority of people who ever exist will not accept Christ as Lord
and Savior
3. More people will end up in hell than in heavan
4. If hell is a place of Universalist redemption, its logical to assume that more people will
find redemption through Hell and Satan than find redemption through Christ.

Is this a fair summary of your concern, and I'd like to ask Logos and others how they
would respond to this proposition?

My response to the first three is: that these propositions are some of the implications of the doctrine of eternal torment. If what the current plausibility structure teaches is true...then the first three propositions would be the outcome.

The fourth proposition belies a misunderstanding of what a limited Hell IS. So to clarify:

Salvation is in Christ alone. However, in the universal salvation plausibility structure, God's wrath and His judgments do not contradict and are not arrayed against Christ's redemption. Grace is a two edged sword, the more grace is recieved the more blessed and the more like Him you personally become, as a vessel filled with what God Himself is, and the life-changing Spirit of Christ infuses with your own.
The opposite is also true...the less grace is recieved.

Now, the idea of a "hellish" life is indeed a danger...however, a believer in universal salvation does not veiw that it is impossible for one to recieve of God the Grace necessary to enter into a life of blessedness and holiness. God's wrath is not viewed as being designed to thwart a blessed life forever, but to affect a pentatent heart and a desire for God's grace. It is not viewed as merely punitive in nature...although that is a part of it, this would not give a full picture. It has purpose to affect change, and compell the need in men and women for Christ to acquire that which we cannot obtain without Him.

The difference between the current popular traditional plausibility structure is that of un-grace becoming a permanant condition without any redemptive attributes of God available forever once one has died, while in the universal salvation model it's not an end in itself and God is not interested in that situation becoming permanant at all. His redemptive purpose continues and is continually available to a soul even in that condition AFTER physical death, facilitated by the resurrection and by the complete overthrow of death itself...so that God may be ALL IN ALL.

The ONLY thing that could stop this from working would be to make a permanent Hell where change is impossible and the future is settled once one has died.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Aimiel]

I was speaking poetically, not literally -- but I guess I forgot who I was speaking to! You take things in a very literal way, as I recall, even expressing a fear once that Satan, if given a chance, might try to "nuke" God's throne and destroy it.

Actually, we're told that was exactly the thought he had in mind when he took on his sin. He wanted to ascend to the throne of The Lord and take over.

Do you believe that people in Heaven will be aware of all the countless souls suffering in eternal torment, or will they have forgotten them? Will God have wiped out those memories?

I believe that God will give us the same abilities that He has, one of which is to forget that which is evil or useless.

 

[Aimiel]

Being 'correct' on this issue is irrelevant, you have publicly admitted that you would be prepared to throw helpless people into a burning pit, your conscience should be enough yardstick to tell you how morally wrong and unmerciful and cruel that is regardless of doctrinal differences,

I don't believe that what God would tell me to do could ever be wrong, unmerciful or cruel. We aren't in any position to judge God, but you wish to change His Word to mean what you 'reason' It to mean, rather than what It says. I don't presume such things. I don't attempt to measure God by my yardstick, or put words in His Mouth.

 

[Redfin]

I believe that God will give us the same abilities that He has, one of which is to forget that which is evil or useless.

I've never heard it put exactly that way before. Interesting... :think:

 

[Balder]

Actually, we're told that was exactly the thought he had in mind when he took on his sin. He wanted to ascend to the throne of The Lord and take over. I believe that God will give us the same abilities that He has, one of which is to forget that which is evil or useless.

So, you will forget that millions or billions of conscious beings are suffering forever, with no escape from their terrible condition.

I suppose that's the only way you could live with yourself and enjoy yourself in heaven.

 

[Solaris]

Hello pastor Kevin, was there any particular reason for the neg rep you gave me for an earlier post on this thread? You gave no explanation, could you explain on this thread? I would also be grateful for your explanation of the verses containing 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' being related to the lake of fire when no such direct connotation is found in the scriptures themselves

Thank you

 

[Solaris]

So, you will forget that millions or billions of conscious beings are suffering forever, with no escape from their terrible condition.

I suppose that's the only way you could live with yourself and enjoy yourself in heaven.

It is also mere conjecture, yet it is surprising how popular the view is that we 'have our memories wiped' so to speak, I think people realise only too well that the thought of knowing our loved ones are suffering horrible pain would be too much to endure and so make up a 'comfort doctrine' of their own in order to deal with it...

 

[Solaris]

I don't believe that what God would tell me to do could ever be wrong, unmerciful or cruel. We aren't in any position to judge God, but you wish to change His Word to mean what you 'reason' It to mean, rather than what It says. I don't presume such things. I don't attempt to measure God by my yardstick, or put words in His Mouth.

We werent talking about whether you would actually be asked to do such a thing, that whole argument is hypothetical and as such a moot point, what is sickening is your apparent belief that you would be more than capable of throwing people into a conscious torture pit - no more no less, unless there is somthing 'loving,merciful and uncruel' about such an act then again I hope your conscience gnaws away at the coldness of your own words

 

[Nineveh]

Well, as I understand the common belief, there are already many, many people who have died without having accepted or even heard about Christ, and all of them will suffer forever. So, already it's too late to say, "Everyone can be saved."

That doesn't mean they couldn't have. It's the same concept. You refuse what is freely given because not everyone wants the same thing you do.

About the resurrection: I believed it when I was a Christian. Now, I still accept it as a possibility, but I no longer believe it unquestioningly.

Really, balder, this is a yes or no here. Do you believe He was raised or no?

 

[Balder]

That doesn't mean they couldn't have. It's the same concept. You refuse what is freely given because not everyone wants the same thing you do.

I don't know anyone who wants to be tortured forever. I reject the idea that anyone will be tortured forever by God because it is a monstrous, evil concept.

Really, balder, this is a yes or no here. Do you believe He was raised or no?

It doesn't have to be yes or no, if you really don't know. That is my answer: "I don't know whether it happened or not."

However, I can say that even if Jesus "appeared" after his death, I do not believe he rose bodily into the sky and flew through space to arrive at "heaven" somewhere "out there" on the other side of your universe.

 

[Nineveh]

I don't know anyone who wants to be tortured forever. I reject the idea that anyone will be tortured forever by God because it is a monstrous, evil concept.

Really?

Didn't you just tell me you gave up your salvation because not everyone wanted what you did? Didn't dave just say, "Better to "suffer with" others than to feast with the Pharisees."? So it appears some do.

It doesn't have to be yes or no, if you really don't know. That is my answer: "I don't know whether it happened or not."

If you don't know, then it seems safe to say you don't believe He did.

 

[Balder]

Really?

Didn't you just tell me you gave up your salvation because not everyone wanted what you did? Didn't dave just say, "Better to "suffer with" others than to feast with the Pharisees."? So it appears some do.

Yeah, I expected you to say that! But to state my position more accurately, I'd put it this way: I don't believe at all that eternal torment awaits anyone. I don't want to be burned alive or tortured. But if, in the extremely remote chance that there really is a "supreme" being who intends to roast individuals alive forever, then I'd prefer to be thus sentenced than to align myself with so monstrous and cruel a being. Heaven would be eternally marred by the knowledge that so many beings are burning alive and suffering terribly at the edges of our little "paradise."

Rather than saying I want eternal torment, it's more accurate to say, I'm willing to take my chances that Christians like you are wrong, because it will be profoundly disappointing to me if you are not.

If you don't know, then it seems safe to say you don't believe He did.

Yeah, but I could also say, I believe he may have.

However, even if he did, my conception of the nature and import of this "resurrection" would no longer align with your beliefs, or my former beliefs.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Really?

Didn't you just tell me you gave up your salvation because not everyone wanted what you did? Didn't dave just say, "Better to "suffer with" others than to feast with the Pharisees."? So it appears some do.

Like the fireman who refuses to leave a building until everyone is out and safe.

He doesn't want to be in the burning building, but he does so willingly.

This is what Jesus did for us, its what we're called to do for others.

Why would Jesus ask us to be merciful and loving in life, but heartless and cruel in
eternity, ignoring the suffering of others?