Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Primghar]

Karla Faye Tucker did. SHE thought that accepting Christ should have freed her from the death penalty, you silly.
I'll TRY to help you understand this: The sword point is her looming executing. The escape clause - at least in the minds of TheoVictus and Karla Faye Tucker - is her conversion. Not to convert means you die; to convert means you live. That's quite an incentive, WHETHER OR NOT IT IS EVER EXPLICITLY STATED THAT WAY.

So, does this mean you had a conversation with Tucker and she told you she thought accepting Christ would free her from the death penalty? Wow--i can't believe you talked to her!
Since when does converting mean you live? That is just silly. I have never heard of someone on death row accepting Christ and being set free because of it. Even IF Tucker's motives for accepting Christ were not pure, the important thing is she accepted Christ!
Who are you (or me, for that matter) to decide whether anyone's conversion is sincere? Maybe my conversion was not sincere, or yours...

 

[JoyfulRook]

Were you trying to be funny? Because that is the dumbest thing I have read! Why would we kill people because of an overpopulation problem? Sounds like China to me!

She's not talking about overpopulation in the sense you're thinking, she's talking about the over-abundance of people in our prison system.

Prisons are evil and are Schools for Criminals. They should 1) pay restitution, 2) be flogged, or 3) executed.

 

[Primghar]

She's not talking about overpopulation in the sense you're thinking, she's talking about the over-abundance of people in our prison system.

Prisons are evil and are Schools for Criminals. They should 1) pay restitution, 2) be flogged, or 3) executed.

I know she was talking about overpopulation in prisons. What about the people who are in prison for theft--should we kill them as well?

I am so confused. Why do you have such a "no tolerance" attitude? Weren't all Christians given a chance to accept Christ; why should we take that chance away from anyone else? Are we more "worthy" of being saved than others?
Christ taught many times that we should forgive others, so I am wondering why you (or any other Christian) is exempt from doing that. Does that teaching not apply to you?

I have a question for you, Dread Helm. What does Matthew 18:21-35 mean to you?

 

[Stripe]

jesus .. .jesus ...

played football for paraguay?

 

[Wamba]

If I may, I know this was not addressed to me, but I believe we will have similar answers.

I know she was talking about overpopulation in prisons. What about the people who are in prison for theft--should we kill them as well?

Dread Helm's points 1 and 2 were paying restitution and/or being flogged (whipped). That would apply to theft.

I am so confused. Why do you have such a "no tolerance" attitude? Weren't all Christians given a chance to accept Christ; why should we take that chance away from anyone else? Are we more "worthy" of being saved than others?

No, we are not more "worthy" we would be carrying out what God commands us (or the government rather) to do.
"Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses..." Numbers 35:30

Christ taught many times that we should forgive others, so I am wondering why you (or any other Christian) is exempt from doing that. Does that teaching not apply to you?

Christ said to forgive others if they were sorry. It depends.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

jesus .. .jesus ...

played football for paraguay?

This is the type of post that we do not want posted in this thread. Please only post posts that have to do with BR XI.

Thank you.

 

[Clete]

I haven't read either post yet (I will later this evening) but I'd say that Turbo won it the moment he changed to his new avatar!

What a brilliant choice for this particular battle. Did anyone else notice it?

 

[Vaquero45]

I haven't read either post yet (I will later this evening) but I'd say that Turbo won it the moment he changed to his new avatar!

What a brilliant choice for this particular battle. Did anyone else notice it?

Yes. It makes a strong point, no question. I don't think it's a slam dunk for the win because God has disallowed the death penalty in the past, but it surely shows that the death penalty is not immoral.

 

[hitek357]

Who are you (or me, for that matter) to decide whether anyone's conversion is sincere? Maybe my conversion was not sincere, or yours...

I could respond to some of the other silliness in your response to me, but the upshot is this: it doesn't matter whether or not her conversion was real or sincere. A murderer should be killed by the governing officials without consideration of anything else, and KFT should have said, "I accept my punishment; it is just" instead of leading non-believers to believe that the Bible teaches that murderers who become believers should not have to face the death penalty. The Bible does NOT teach that.

KFT DID say publicly that she thought she should not have to die because of her conversion.

BTW, I believe her conversion was sincere and real.

 

[Clete]

Yes. It makes a strong point, no question. I don't think it's a slam dunk for the win because God has disallowed the death penalty in the past, but it surely shows that the death penalty is not immoral.

I agree, it doesn't "win the debate" but if a picture is worth a thousand words, leave it to Turbo to find the perfect thousand word essay to begin every post with.

 

[Primghar]

I could respond to some of the other silliness in your response to me, but the upshot is this: it doesn't matter whether or not her conversion was real or sincere. A murderer should be killed by the governing officials without consideration of anything else, and KFT should have said, "I accept my punishment; it is just" instead of leading non-believers to believe that the Bible teaches that murderers who become believers should not have to face the death penalty. The Bible does NOT teach that.

KFT DID say publicly that she thought she should not have to die because of her conversion.

BTW, I believe her conversion was sincere and real.

I want to know exactly what she said...Could you post is please?

I am not talking about "the governing officials." They can be discussed some other time. I am talking about whether or not CHRISTIANS should support the death penalty. And how come nobody addresses the forgiveness issue?? Lots of people seem to think we should just kill everyone who does something wrong (or at least the ones who get caught and go to jail--which doesn't seem to be a just practice...that only the ones who get caught are punished), but what about the things you do wrong?

 

[Primghar]

If I may, I know this was not addressed to me, but I believe we will have similar answers.

Dread Helm's points 1 and 2 were paying restitution and/or being flogged (whipped). That would apply to theft.

No, we are not more "worthy" we would be carrying out what God commands us (or the government rather) to do.
"Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses..." Numbers 35:30


Christ said to forgive others if they were sorry. It depends.

I have a question, how does being flogged pay the price for theft? That is ridiculous. That is a pretty crazy punishment for stealing a car.

You keep using Old Testament scripture! What about the New Testament?? I thought Christ fulfilled the OT law and recieved the punishment for our sins that WE actually deserve. This makes no sense! Our punishment has already been taken care of!

Where does Christ say to forgive if the person is "sorry"? That is dumb. Did you read the verses I posted? (Matthew 18:21-35; also consider Matt.6:14-15) I don't remember Christ ever saying, "My brothers, forgive one another...BUT only if the wrongdoer says they're sorry!" I wish that is what he said :cloud9: ; it would make forgiveness a lot easier to do. I mean, wow!
My Webster's dictionary says:
forgive--"to give up resentment against or the desire to punish." I missed where it says "only if an apology is given." Maybe your dictionary says that.

My Bible dictionary says:
In pardoning sin, God absolves the sinner from the condemnation of the law, and that on account of the work of Christ, he removes the guilt of sin, or the sinner's actual liability to eternal wrath on account of it. All sins are forgiven freely (Acts 5:31; 13:38; 1 John 1:6-9). The sinner is by this act of grace for ever freed from the guilt and penalty of his sins. This is the peculiar prerogative of God (Psalms 130:4; Mark 2:5). It is offered to all in the gospel.

Seems like forgiveness is about mercy and grace. It doesn't matter if there is an apology.

 

[truthteller86]

I want to know exactly what she said...Could you post is please?

I am not talking about "the governing officials." They can be discussed some other time. I am talking about whether or not CHRISTIANS should support the death penalty. And how come nobody addresses the forgiveness issue?? Lots of people seem to think we should just kill everyone who does something wrong (or at least the ones who get caught and go to jail--which doesn't seem to be a just practice...that only the ones who get caught are punished), but what about the things you do wrong?

Primghar (if that's your real name :chuckle: ). Prior to espousing your "opinion" on what "Christians" should or shoud not do, don't you think it would be beneficial to find out what God thinks first? Here is a good starting point for your consideration, just in case you actually care what God commanded for punishing criminals.
You can only forgive someone who wronged you. If you stole $100 from Joe Blow and told me you were "sorry", I can not forgive you, because you did not steal the $100 from me. If you did steal the $100 from me and then repented, I could choose to forgive you then because of the crime you committed agaist me. That being the case, just because I forgave you, that does not automatically "trump" God's Biblical punishment for theft....if so, then that would undermine God's system for deterring crime. According to your un-Biblical reasoning, if a murderer repents, then God's command to swiftly execute the murderer no longer applies....then what? Free room, board, health care, legal representation, cable TV, and basketball for the rest of his life paid for by the victim's family? That's sick.

 

[Yorzhik]

Great opening round.

 

[Delmar]

I have a question, how does being flogged pay the price for theft? That is ridiculous. That is a pretty crazy punishment for stealing a car.

Did you miss the part about restitution. Restitution pays for the car. The flogging causes him to never want to do it again. Teaching someone not to be a criminal is more merciful than teaching him he can get away with it.

You keep using Old Testament scripture! What about the New Testament?? I thought Christ fulfilled the OT law and recieved the punishment for our sins that WE actually deserve. This makes no sense! Our punishment has already been taken care of!

Do you propose that all criminals are simply let go and told that Christ took there punishment? Christ recived the punishment for our sins, but not for our crimes.

Where does Christ say to forgive if the person is "sorry"?

Luke 17:3
If your brother sins *against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

That is dumb. Did you read the verses I posted? (Matthew 18:21-35; also consider Matt.6:14-15) I don't remember Christ ever saying, "My brothers, forgive one another...BUT only if the wrongdoer says they're sorry!" I wish that is what he said :cloud9: ; it would make forgiveness a lot easier to do. I mean, wow!
My Webster's dictionary says:
forgive--"to give up resentment against or the desire to punish." I missed where it says "only if an apology is given." Maybe your dictionary says that.

My Bible dictionary says:
In pardoning sin, God absolves the sinner from the condemnation of the law, and that on account of the work of Christ, he removes the guilt of sin, or the sinner's actual liability to eternal wrath on account of it. All sins are forgiven freely (Acts 5:31; 13:38; 1 John 1:6-9). The sinner is by this act of grace for ever freed from the guilt and penalty of his sins. This is the peculiar prerogative of God (Psalms 130:4; Mark 2:5). It is offered to all in the gospel.

Seems like forgiveness is about mercy and grace. It doesn't matter if there is an apology.

 

[Delmar]

I want to know exactly what she said...Could you post is please?

I am not talking about "the governing officials." They can be discussed some other time. I am talking about whether or not CHRISTIANS should support the death penalty. And how come nobody addresses the forgiveness issue?? Lots of people seem to think we should just kill everyone who does something wrong (or at least the ones who get caught and go to jail--which doesn't seem to be a just practice...that only the ones who get caught are punished), but what about the things you do wrong?

A Christian who supports the death penalty is merly saying that "the governing officials." should do their job.

 

[Turbo]

With permission from theo_victis and Knight, I corrected the following typos in my Round 1 post:

Jesus taught that on a spiritual level, getting angry at your neighbor without cause is the equivalent of actually murdering your neighbor (Matthew 9:21-22).​

Corrected reference to Matthew 5:21-22.

The death penalty as it is currently in the United States has no teeth, being neither consistent nor painful not speedily executed.​

Changed not to nor.

When our laws are unjust, forcing a murder victim's family and loved ones to pay for the murderer victim's care until he dies of old age, people are more likely to doubt the existence of a just God.​

Changed murder victim's care to murderer's care.


Thank you, the Sibbie, for catching these mistakes.

 

[hitek357]

I want to know exactly what she said...Could you post is please?

No. I don't want to.

I am not talking about "the governing officials." They can be discussed some other time. I am talking about whether or not CHRISTIANS should support the death penalty. And how come nobody addresses the forgiveness issue?? Lots of people seem to think we should just kill everyone who does something wrong (or at least the ones who get caught and go to jail--which doesn't seem to be a just practice...that only the ones who get caught are punished), but what about the things you do wrong?

There are those two sides to consider: Crime and punishment from the angle of the 1) governing officials and 2) us Chrisitans. Sticking close the the KFT story it is easy to form my response: If someone murdered my brother or sister and later truly and sincerely repented, then I should forgive him/her, while the governing officials should execute him/her.

 

[Stripe]

This is the type of post that we do not want posted in this thread. Please only post posts that have to do with BR XI.

apologies.

on topic: theo_victis seems to be generating a correlation between the sin that jesus has set us free from and the actions we do every day that are wrong...

 

[Wamba]

I have a question, how does being flogged pay the price for theft? That is ridiculous. That is a pretty crazy punishment for stealing a car.

I have the exact same answer as Delmar. :up:

You keep using Old Testament scripture! What about the New Testament?? I thought Christ fulfilled the OT law and recieved the punishment for our sins that WE actually deserve. This makes no sense! Our punishment has already been taken care of!

The Old Testament/New Testament debate is for another time and place, seeing as this is the thread disscussing the Battle Royale.

Where does Christ say to forgive if the person is "sorry"? That is dumb. Did you read the verses I posted? (Matthew 18:21-35; also consider Matt.6:14-15) I don't remember Christ ever saying, "My brothers,forgive one another...BUT only if the wrongdoer says they're sorry!" I wish that is what he said :cloud9: ; it would make forgiveness a lot easier to do. I mean, wow!

Again, The same verse Delmar brought up.
Luke 17:3 If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

My Webster's dictionary says:
forgive--"to give up resentment against or the desire to punish." I missed where it says "only if an apology is given." Maybe your dictionary says that.

Uhhh.... That's the dictionary. It's written by men, the kind that aren't always right.

My Bible dictionary says:
In pardoning sin, God absolves the sinner from the condemnation of the law, and that on account of the work of Christ, he removes the guilt of sin, or the sinner's actual liability to eternal wrath on account of it. All sins are forgiven freely (Acts 5:31; 13:38; 1 John 1:6-9). The sinner is by this act of grace for ever freed from the guilt and penalty of his sins. This is the peculiar prerogative of God (Psalms 130:4; Mark 2:5). It is offered to all in the gospel.

Seems like forgiveness is about mercy and grace. It doesn't matter if there is an apology.[/QUOTE]
Alright, here's Luke 17 3 and 4 just to reinforce the point.
Luke 17:3-4 3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”