Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Just Tom]

Just Tom is the one with the avatar that says Homophobia is vindicated by AIDS. What the heck is that?

Tell him about his maturity why dont ya?



You have the mind of Christ?!?!?!



So Christ's sacrifice means nothing on earth? Where do you get that idea. Oh wait, you have Jesus' brain, I see.


I am getting tired of this site.

Christ's sacrifice paid the penalty for my sin so that I could have a right relationship with him here on earth. Since by following the LAW I could have never done it!

So by your constant referral to James 2 do you mean that I should be following the LAW? And this mercy that it is talking about isn't he talking about the POOR among them. That is how he starts the whole chapter and everything refers back to that.

And do I then need good works to be justified before God?

No one on this site that I know of is judging by mere appearances as James is writing and chastising his church about..

Wow you have gotten in with some wolves in sheep's clothing haven't you..

 

[theo_victis]

Jam 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
Jam 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

 

[DEVO]

Christians should not because principally, they have been forgiven for their sins, why should they condemn others to death for theirs?

Because that is the God given prescription for a capital crime.

This is not love! Love keeps no records of wrong:

Why even say that?

You advocate imprisonment for criminals!!!! Hello??? Therefore you are keeping a "record of wrongs". I realize you are only 19 but you should be old enough to understand the idiocy of your position.

This is so basic. What is loving about the DP? Should Christians support something that goes against God's command to love? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The death penalty is what God commands. There is no further reason to question it.

Theo, my question for you....

Which of the following two options fits best with the statement "keeps no record of wrongs"?

A. Keeping no record of a criminals wrongs and setting them free just as they were before the crime.

or...

B. Determining a jail sentence for a criminal and keeping a criminal record for that criminal so that we know how long to keep him in jail. When the criminal asks... "can I leave jail?" we can tell them "no" because we have a record of what they did.

Which is more like "keeping no record of wrongs", A or B?

 

[DEVO]

Theo gave me a negative reputation comment. At least now I have a small record of my "wrongs".

 

[Turbo]

I would if Turbo would have actually addressed the debate Topic. I would if I wouldnt continually be misrepresented by Turbo about my view on correction and discipline.

And yet here you are misrepresenting my view on trials and sentences:

If you have swift trials they are not going to be fair. You know that speed does not mean accuracy.

I never said that trials should be rushed. I said that capital criminals should be swiftly executed upon conviction, and that convictions should be based on the testimony of at least two or three lines of evidence.

When the death penalty is administered consistently, swiftly, and painfully upon conviction of capital crimes, the incidence of those crimes is minimized.

We should be diligent to represent God accurately; we should teach others, including governing authorities, that God has commanded that every murderer be swiftly and painfully put to death upon conviction.

TurboQ27 Do you deny that God commanded Israel to speedily execute capital criminals upon conviction?

Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. Deuteronomy 17:6​

If a wrongful conviction is made carelessly, based on insufficient evidence (i.e. not based upon at least two or three witnesses or lines of evidence), then the judge who rendered the verdict is culpable. In a capital case, he is guilty of negligent homicide and should therefore be put to death.

Theo-Q-13: Can we judge people with the same accuracy as the Lord?

Turbo A-TheoQ13: No. And God has always known this. Yet God appointed men as judges and commanded them to execute capital criminals convicted based on the testimony of two or three witnesses (i.e. lines of evidence).

God... commanded that capital criminals be put to death based on two or three strong pieces of evidence.

If you think that what I have said is required to establish guilt is not fair, then take it up with God because I got it from Him.

 

[Nineveh]

19

Humility is a hard but golden lesson, theo. I don't know where you are aiming your life, but if it's to be a pastor, I hope you learn this lesson soon.

Turbo can call me a dim witted lab rat and you rejoice. Hypocrite.

Did you listen to a thing he had to say before or after that? The part of Turbo's quote you missed was, "who just never catches on". Maybe it's because you are too busy being right to be edified or instructed in the meat.

Shame.

 

[Just Tom]

Jam 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
Jam 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Speak and act as those who will be judged by the LAW.... The LAW says to convict and execute those that commit capital crimes.

You rip verses out of the context in which they are being used to try to establish a position which goes contrary to the rest of the bible. James is chastizing those in his church because they are judging by MERE APPEARANCES, Thus they are violating the law of LOVE. So they are not loving their neighbor as thyself, He wants them to have mercy and help those who are poor among them and not look down on them. Thus his quote to

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

He wanted those "with" to help those without and not judge them by what they wear or their position in society, Show that they love Jesus by helping out those with less and not be looking down on them...

You see your problem is that you are hyper-spiritual and so you try to read into the scripture to much to prove how right you are with your relationship with GOD IMO...

And open rebuke is better than love carefully hidden....

 

[jeremiah]

By the measure with which you judge, that is how you will be judged!

If someone repents of the wrong that they have done me and I forgive them, then that is the measure by which I will be judged. Therefore I will be able to go to God and repent of my sins and be forgiven. If I do not forgive someone who repents of their wrong done to me and asks my forgiveness, then that is how I will be judged by God. That will be the measure I have set.

If I forgive someone who has not repented but only asked my forgiveness, then God will have to forgive me if I merely ask His forgiveness, and I will be able to sin with impunity.

Does this sound right? Or does it sound like this.........He will assign you a"place" with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Chileice]

Theo-
Don't blow a gasket! Those who KNOW they are right will never listen. And all of your ranting only gives them more feul for their fires. At some point, although it is hard, when you are 19, you just have to realize that not everyone will agree with you. I do think it is a great shame that people question your Christianity or say negative things about you just because they disagree with your point of view. But chill, learn to walk with God and learn when to shake the dust off your feet and leave the battle in His hands. I do believe he is merciful and kind and that He does want us to be in the business of redemption rather than revenge. I believe he is patient and not willing that any should perish in spite of the fact that some believers would be quick to call down fire as James and John wanted to. Jesus was patient and even forgave those who hung him on the cross. Certainly if anyone deserved the death penalty it was them. Yet many of those same people came to faith when we read Acts... even a great number of priests, many who probably screamed, "crucify him". I think we are still learning as Christians all that our freedom in Christ means. And I think that a few decades from now believers everywhere will find the idea of killing people for their crimes repugnant. I think you are just ahead of the curve. But don't let your youthful zeal cause you to stoop to name-calling or bitterness. Who cares who thinks you won the debate? It really doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU do all you can to advance the cause of Christ so that many might be redeemed (2 Cor. 5.16- 6.2).

Thanks Turbo for your participation. Although you didn't convince me of your view, I found most of your posts thought provoking. Blessings on you both.

 

[theLawRocks]

Great debate

Great debate

Theo and Turbo, Great debate. I learned a lot. I loved looking up the scripture that you referenced and struggled with each verse.

Theo, while I side with Turbo’s view of scripture, I am encouraged to see you dealing with hard topics of scripture. James 2:12 is a challenging concept that will bring you great blessing as you struggle with it because it is God’s Word. But I sense that you’ve come to an incorrect position while wrestling with the Cross, forgiveness and the law that has caused you to declare the “Law is obsolete”.

When Jesus said that we should “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as your self “ (Matt 22:36-40), he was not putting an end to the Law. He made the Law even more encompassing; harder to achieve; grander. But he ALSO gave us the Holy Spirit. How Awesome is God. The giving of the Holy Spirit is part of the new covenant. The new covenant didn’t make the law obsolete. Please note that Jesus, James and Paul were quoting the OT law and commands when stating the Great Commandment. (Lev 19:18, Duet 6:5 and more). It wasn’t invalidated; He just gave us the means to try, still imperfectly.

Congratulations on your and Primghar’s engagement, The Lord has awesome plans for you both. Stay in His Word. I suspect that you’ll gain a better understanding of the value and proper application of God’s law when you have children.

I hope that you and Turbo have the opportunity to meet and struggle over the greater thing of the Lord.

For me, I am no longer UNDER the law; it is no longer a curse to me, it is a resource, a gift from God.


Stay in His Word,

 

[theo_victis]

Theo-
Don't blow a gasket! Those who KNOW they are right will never listen. And all of your ranting only gives them more feul for their fires. At some point, although it is hard, when you are 19, you just have to realize that not everyone will agree with you. I do think it is a great shame that people question your Christianity or say negative things about you just because they disagree with your point of view. But chill, learn to walk with God and learn when to shake the dust off your feet and leave the battle in His hands. I do believe he is merciful and kind and that He does want us to be in the business of redemption rather than revenge. I believe he is patient and not willing that any should perish in spite of the fact that some believers would be quick to call down fire as James and John wanted to. Jesus was patient and even forgave those who hung him on the cross. Certainly if anyone deserved the death penalty it was them. Yet many of those same people came to faith when we read Acts... even a great number of priests, many who probably screamed, "crucify him". I think we are still learning as Christians all that our freedom in Christ means. And I think that a few decades from now believers everywhere will find the idea of killing people for their crimes repugnant. I think you are just ahead of the curve. But don't let your youthful zeal cause you to stoop to name-calling or bitterness. Who cares who thinks you won the debate? It really doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU do all you can to advance the cause of Christ so that many might be redeemed (2 Cor. 5.16- 6.2).

Thanks. I appreciate your advise and support. I never went into this debate trying to win in the classical sense, I wanted to make people think and change a few minds. I think I accomplished that. I will take your words to heart.

 

[theo_victis]

Congratulations on your and Primghar’s engagement, The Lord has awesome plans for you both. Stay in His Word.

Thanks! I am glad you enjoyed the debate.

But I sense that you’ve come to an incorrect position while wrestling with the Cross, forgiveness and the law that has caused you to declare the “Law is obsolete”.

I just have one objection to this. Hebrews 8:13 states:

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


Scripture calls it obsolete. In my opinion this is where all of Turbo's arguments fall apart because he attempts to use the Law to justify his position. James 2 indicates that the we are not to judge without exercising mercy:

Jam 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
Jam 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[lowerlevel]

I support the death penalty, at least the last time I thought about it, I did. But now, I am not too sure. not really because of the debate (cause I havent read it yet, sorry) but rather because of what I have observed in churches in other parts of the world.... Namely tribal churches. One example would be the Moi people of Indonesia. The Moi are one of the most isolated people group in Indonesia. A friend of mine, Steve C. has been working with them for about ten years now. After he learned the language (about 5 yrs of work) he taught chronologically through the bible for about 6 months. During month 3, a man named Moumedae(sp?) killed his 3rd wife after observing how his 2 yr old son (from his second wife)died. he believed she used sorcery to kill his young son, demoenia, so he chopped her in half. but after he finished the teaching, Moumedae believed the gospel. he is now an elder/leader in that church and has decided to move his family into another tribe so that he can present the same message to them.
two observations- this man (in our society) was worthy of the death penalty, and would never be able to lead a church.
His wife received the death penalty and never heard the gospel, now sentenced to hell for eternity.

I know this doesn't directly apply to our culture, and can't... but it makes me wonder a bit more about the death penalty

 

[the Sibbie]

Eat it, Turbo.

Now how appropriate is that from the mouth of the bride-to-be of a man involved in ministry? :nono:

An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 12:4

Houses and riches are an inheritance from fathers,
But a prudent wife is from the LORD. Proverbs 19:14​

That was stupid, Turbo.

Turbo said, "You [theo] say that the death penalty is not just." Which was completely wrong since theo said, multiple times, that it WAS JUST for EVERYONE. So, stupid!

And it was dumb of Turbo to say,...

Everyone is just so dumb and stupid to you. How old are you, 14?

It talks about LOVE! LOVE! And the next chapter (14) talks about......NOT JUDGING!

Yet you just can't stop judging Turbo! :ha:

I was not happy with Turbo's post at all.

:baby:

 

[Primghar]

Now how appropriate is that from the mouth of the bride-to-be of a man involved in ministry? :nono:

An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 12:4

Houses and riches are an inheritance from fathers,
But a prudent wife is from the LORD. Proverbs 19:14​

Everyone is just so dumb and stupid to you. How old are you, 14?



Yet you just can't stop judging Turbo! :ha:

:baby:

haha. I can say something is stupid if that is what I think. Everyone is not dumb and stupid to me. I think a lot of people are intelligent.
No, I am not 14.

 

[JoyfulRook]

haha. I can say something is stupid if that is what I think. Everyone is not dumb and stupid to me. I think a lot of people are intelligent.
No, I am not 14.

What about judging? Why are you judging Turbo if you think judging is bad?

 

[JoyfulRook]

So, are you going to hunt down adulterers? Kids that disobey their parents? Does James 2 mean anything to you? Or is it something to ignore?

:doh: It seems like you misunderstood the very foundation of Turbo's position.

He isn't advocating the death penalty as is it enforced today, he supports it as it should be enforced. Not only that, but he doesn't support vigilantism, he supports law changes to have convicted murderers be put to death quickly and painfully after trial.




(Turbo, if I misrepresent you, feel free to change that)

 

[Just Tom]

Thanks! I am glad you enjoyed the debate.


I just have one objection to this. Hebrews 8:13 states:

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


Scripture calls it obsolete. In my opinion this is where all of Turbo's arguments fall apart because he attempts to use the Law to justify his position. James 2 indicates that the we are not to judge without exercising mercy:

Jam 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
Jam 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

I respectfully disagree with you.

WHY do you keep ripping these verses out of context to abolish the death penalty. James is talking about those who are judging others by their position in the community. And that they are not helping one another because of this. READ IT all of it in context!!!

And Hebrews is talking about Jesus fulfilling the sacrificial laws that the jews used to have to do to be right with God. Now all they have to to is to come to Jesus and they don't need to go to the priests and offer sacrifices.

You will make a great TV evangelist with your wrong theology..

 

[theo_victis]

You will make a great TV evangelist with your wrong theology..

And you would make a great Nazi with your pure hatred towards homosexuals.

 

[DEVO]

Theo maybe you missed my post?

This is not love! Love keeps no records of wrong:

Theo, my question for you....

Which of the following two options fits best with the statement "keeps no record of wrongs"?

A. Keeping no record of a criminals wrongs and setting them free just as they were before the crime.

or...

B. Determining a jail sentence for a criminal and keeping a criminal record for that criminal so that we know how long to keep him in jail. When the criminal asks... "can I leave jail?" we can tell them "no" because we have a record of what they did.

Which is more like "keeping no record of wrongs", A or B?