BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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bill betzler
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Quick question Rapt, Should Christians die as lambs or buy guns and fight to the death?
Murder or execution ?
Murder or execution ?
Rapt
Do you recognise the diffrence between murder & execution ?
You may not agree with the laws under which an execution takes place, but the state has authority to make laws, & wield the sword. Calvin was not a murderer, but approved (reluctantly) an execution.
An ongoing problem is whether the state has authority to make laws to enforce conformity to an established religion. The believer is in that case required to disobey man's law & obey God.
There is a lot of mileage in whether the US church-state separation results in greater support of the state by the church than the UK established church, which nowadays frequently speaks against the govenment.
Murder or execution ?
Rapt
Do you recognise the diffrence between murder & execution ?
You may not agree with the laws under which an execution takes place, but the state has authority to make laws, & wield the sword. Calvin was not a murderer, but approved (reluctantly) an execution.
An ongoing problem is whether the state has authority to make laws to enforce conformity to an established religion. The believer is in that case required to disobey man's law & obey God.
There is a lot of mileage in whether the US church-state separation results in greater support of the state by the church than the UK established church, which nowadays frequently speaks against the govenment.
Really? So I can say, according to the laws of Geneva (which you can find if you try even a little) that Servetus was wrong to come back and the Calvin was legally justified (I said nothing about morally) to execute him, and you are telling me that gives you the right to say I am not a Christian?
Do you even read the Bible?
I have never denied the Bible, and in fact I have stuck to it in order to make my point. You, however, have no texts supporting your right to judge my heart. Calvin was the law in Geneva. therefore, when he tells someone that they will be executed for coming back, I can only say that he is within his rights to have a criminal (Servetus became a crimnal when he broke his banishment) exectued according to the laws of his city.
Calvin was legally correct.
rapt is morally wrong. You have no right to judge my heart or salvation.
rapt, you sound an awful lot like a Pharisee, claiming that only you are holy and everyone else is a sinner, that only you understand scripture. I know it is obvious to everyone else here that you do not understand scripture, for you obviously know not love, and love is from God, and everyone that loves is born of God. But you LOVE NOT, and therefore do not know God.
Maybe if you showed love ever on this board, I would be less inclined to question your sanctification. I do not know you well enough to talk about your salvation, but your fruit is surely lacking. If you cannot see that, please pray about it.
Just because this is a message board where you get to be annonymous does not give you the right to check your spirituality at the door. God still knows you, and God is still looking at your heart.
May the Lord forgive me for how I am feeling right now.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
Rapt, read James 4:11ff and come back and tell us if you really think you are wise enough to take Christ's place in judgement. I respectfully submit that James is quite right and that for you to do so is the hight of arrogance and shows the worst contempt for God.
Re: Murder or execution ?
Re: Murder or execution ?
Every government that has ever existed has enforced some moral code or belief system. When a government is faced with determining the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a matter, it makes that determination upon some belief system -- some religion. So, in essence, every government is the enforcement arm of some religion. That religion can be ascertained by examining the laws of the land.
Re: Murder or execution ?
Every state enforces some established religion by definition.
The concept of "separation of church and state" is false. No such separation exists and never has. The American people have accepted a lie which allowed the government to enforce their own religion while allowing Christians to believe that Christianity remained the underlying religion of our government. Christians, for the most part, bought it -- hook, line, and sinker.
Every government that has ever existed has enforced some moral code or belief system. When a government is faced with determining the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a matter, it makes that determination upon some belief system -- some religion. So, in essence, every government is the enforcement arm of some religion. That religion can be ascertained by examining the laws of the land.
Explosived
New member
LOVE AND CHARITY
LOVE AND CHARITY
Note in 1 Corinthians 13 we have what has been called the "love" chapter. Well, it is a love chapter, but the word "love" is not actually there. The word used in Chapter 13 is slightly different. It is the word "charity". Though love and charity are synonymous in a general sense, if we look closer we will see that they are slightly different in some ways.
In the New Testament the word "love" is mentioned 86 times and the word "charity" is mentioned 26 times. What is the difference between these words?
Love originates from God, for "....God is love" (1 John 4:8).
"Love" is an attribute of God, along with his holiness and justice. "Love" is the affection of God towards us and was manifested to us when God sent His Son to shed his precious blood, and die on Calvary's tree, to pay the penalty of our sins.
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." (1 John 4:9)
And only because He "first loved us" can we love Him. "We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
Now "charity" has more to do with our relationship to our brother, whereas "love" has more to do with our relationship to God.
In 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14, we are dealing with the subject of gifts, the way we can give of ourselves to the edifying of one another. Right in the middle of this dialogue we have "charity". Charity has to do with giving, with edifying one another. When we look at various verses regarding charity, fellow believers are directly linked:
1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth".
2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity."
1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
So we see that love is more related to an individual in relation to God and charity is more related to an individual in relation to others.
Love is Godward.
Charity is Manward.
And lest we forget, the word charity has always had that age old meaning "To give to the needy". So 1 Corinthians 13 is a love chapter, but it is more so a charity chapter.
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".
LOVE AND CHARITY
Note in 1 Corinthians 13 we have what has been called the "love" chapter. Well, it is a love chapter, but the word "love" is not actually there. The word used in Chapter 13 is slightly different. It is the word "charity". Though love and charity are synonymous in a general sense, if we look closer we will see that they are slightly different in some ways.
In the New Testament the word "love" is mentioned 86 times and the word "charity" is mentioned 26 times. What is the difference between these words?
Love originates from God, for "....God is love" (1 John 4:8).
"Love" is an attribute of God, along with his holiness and justice. "Love" is the affection of God towards us and was manifested to us when God sent His Son to shed his precious blood, and die on Calvary's tree, to pay the penalty of our sins.
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." (1 John 4:9)
And only because He "first loved us" can we love Him. "We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
Now "charity" has more to do with our relationship to our brother, whereas "love" has more to do with our relationship to God.
In 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14, we are dealing with the subject of gifts, the way we can give of ourselves to the edifying of one another. Right in the middle of this dialogue we have "charity". Charity has to do with giving, with edifying one another. When we look at various verses regarding charity, fellow believers are directly linked:
1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth".
2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity."
1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
So we see that love is more related to an individual in relation to God and charity is more related to an individual in relation to others.
Love is Godward.
Charity is Manward.
And lest we forget, the word charity has always had that age old meaning "To give to the needy". So 1 Corinthians 13 is a love chapter, but it is more so a charity chapter.
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".
Calvin and all the other people that we as Christians are divided over.
This is not good to follow any other than Jesus and His word, following men and their words only divide Christians.
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Was John Calvin crucified for you? The reformers have atempted to divide Christ, and men are still taking up sides. And people like rapt who do not go to one side or the other are still being judged by the side takers.
Let's look at some fruit here while we are at it:
Servetus, a friend of Calvin, returned a copy of the Instutions to Calvin who sent it to him. Servetus made notes in the margins,(we do not know what the notes were, the evidence was destroyed) and this was his crime which led to his demise. Calvin got a Bible and wrote notes in the margins, this is the doctrine that he forced on all that were in Geneva.
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
It is very clear in the light of the Bible that we should not follow men but we should strive to keep Jesus and His Word as the head of the church.
The marginal notes of Calvin and his gang were spreading through Europe.
The King James Bible was made to remove marginal notes. I find it interesting that this thread about the KJV wound its way around to Calvin and his marginal notes.
This is not good to follow any other than Jesus and His word, following men and their words only divide Christians.
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Was John Calvin crucified for you? The reformers have atempted to divide Christ, and men are still taking up sides. And people like rapt who do not go to one side or the other are still being judged by the side takers.
Let's look at some fruit here while we are at it:
Servetus, a friend of Calvin, returned a copy of the Instutions to Calvin who sent it to him. Servetus made notes in the margins,(we do not know what the notes were, the evidence was destroyed) and this was his crime which led to his demise. Calvin got a Bible and wrote notes in the margins, this is the doctrine that he forced on all that were in Geneva.
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
It is very clear in the light of the Bible that we should not follow men but we should strive to keep Jesus and His Word as the head of the church.
The marginal notes of Calvin and his gang were spreading through Europe.
The King James Bible was made to remove marginal notes. I find it interesting that this thread about the KJV wound its way around to Calvin and his marginal notes.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
Since I ssume that by men you mean "people' thenw hy shou8ld we continue to listen to a thing you say?
Explain again how rapt is not taking sides? And explain again how he is not the one assuming the role of judge?
Do you not make notes in your BIble? Your paragraphthere seems remarkably naive and constructed to manipulate rather than inform because you look at neither the whol picutre or thei ntent.
Again, if the voice of men have nothing to say to us about faith, then why should we listen to a word you say?
The marginal notes of Calvin and his gang were spreading through Europe.
The King James Bible was made to remove marginal notes. I find it interesting that this thread about the KJV wound its way around to Calvin and his marginal notes.
That makes no sense. Ever use a study Bible at all? Ever take noted during a sermon or listen to what your preacher says?
Explosived
New member
Pay no attention to Pilgrimagain Ginger, he's just mad cause he is getting one of his "gods" kicked, Calvin.:kiss:
Explosived
New member
At least we're consistent..........
Pilgrimagain,
You might want to reread my post. I am for eliminating division in the church. Following men has only increased division. The only way Christians can enjoy unity is to cast out all other teaching and make Jesus and His Word the only doctrine.
Show me where rapt is taking side with men. rapt rebuked Jaltus for taking side with the man Calvin. Are you also taking side with the man Calvin?
As a side note, I have seen the violent spirit, that drove Calvin in causing christians to be killed, in Calvinists that I have met also.
You might want to reread my post. I am for eliminating division in the church. Following men has only increased division. The only way Christians can enjoy unity is to cast out all other teaching and make Jesus and His Word the only doctrine.
Show me where rapt is taking side with men. rapt rebuked Jaltus for taking side with the man Calvin. Are you also taking side with the man Calvin?
As a side note, I have seen the violent spirit, that drove Calvin in causing christians to be killed, in Calvinists that I have met also.
Redeemed,
I did say " And people like rapt who do not go to one side or the other are still being judged by the side takers." I also said "Show me where rapt is taking side with men. rapt rebuked Jaltus for taking side with the man Calvin. Are you also taking side with the man Calvin? "
It appears that you want to change what I said. My understanding of rapt is that he was following:
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Should we just let men like Calvin change the Word of God and not reprove it? The fruit of Calvin causing Servetus to be killed (without mercy but burned) is clearly the unfruitful works of darkness. Calvin *was* the law of Geneva.
Getting back to the thread, the King James Bible was primarily made to ban the teachings of Calvinism and rightly so. For Calvinism is based on the doctrine of man and not the Word of God.
I did say " And people like rapt who do not go to one side or the other are still being judged by the side takers." I also said "Show me where rapt is taking side with men. rapt rebuked Jaltus for taking side with the man Calvin. Are you also taking side with the man Calvin? "
It appears that you want to change what I said. My understanding of rapt is that he was following:
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Should we just let men like Calvin change the Word of God and not reprove it? The fruit of Calvin causing Servetus to be killed (without mercy but burned) is clearly the unfruitful works of darkness. Calvin *was* the law of Geneva.
Getting back to the thread, the King James Bible was primarily made to ban the teachings of Calvinism and rightly so. For Calvinism is based on the doctrine of man and not the Word of God.
Marginal notes.
Marginal notes.
Ginger
When I was a boy, every Bible was the AV, [I did not know of the RV] they all had, not marginal notes, but notes heading each chapter explaining what we were about to read.
I can't find an old copy at present, but I remember one note:
A prayer for the heathen
It refers to Song of Solomon 8:8.
If there are any dispys left after DD's rout of Jerry, all the references to Israel in prophecy were referred to the Church in the AV.
Note:
We only knew the AV (Authorised Version) the name KJV seems to have come from America, presumable because you have no king over there (apart from Elvis) & you honour KJ for sending the Pilgrim Fathers to pioneer the settlement.
Marginal notes.
Ginger
When I was a boy, every Bible was the AV, [I did not know of the RV] they all had, not marginal notes, but notes heading each chapter explaining what we were about to read.
I can't find an old copy at present, but I remember one note:
A prayer for the heathen
It refers to Song of Solomon 8:8.
If there are any dispys left after DD's rout of Jerry, all the references to Israel in prophecy were referred to the Church in the AV.
Note:
We only knew the AV (Authorised Version) the name KJV seems to have come from America, presumable because you have no king over there (apart from Elvis) & you honour KJ for sending the Pilgrim Fathers to pioneer the settlement.
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Redeemed said "That's interesting. If the Word of God was already opposed to the teachings of Calvin, then why did it need to be "made" to ban the teachings of Calvinism?"
To remove the marginal notes of Calvin and other followers of Calvinism which made up one third of the Geneva Bible. The Word of God stands alone and Calvinism or any other ism should not be added to it. The KJV was made to bring an english Bible to the people minus the one third (marginal notes) that was not the word of God. This is the reason the marginal notes are called *Calvinism*, because it is not the Word of God, and it had to be removed to preserve the Word of God. The KJV is about 95% exactly the same as the Tyndale translation. The Tyndale translation was polluted by Calvin and his followers, and their "Geneva" version was being spread about Europe. The KJV was commisioned to remove the marginal notes. It has been preserved to this day.
Go and get some books from the library about the reformation and you can read about it for yourself. Don't just believe what one source says, read them all. It is in the history books. Thats where I found out about the reformation and the inquisition. And read all the church history to see what the reformers did and wrote. Then know the scriptures so you can see where they were wrong.
We need to know the scripture, the whole thing, because there is alot of things being said today that do not agree with the scripture. Don't believe everything you read or hear people say but test it against the truth of the scripture. The truth will set you free.
Redeemed: "No doctrine is more man-made than the King James Only doctrine."
King James only = scripture only, how do you support that scripture is man-made??
To remove the marginal notes of Calvin and other followers of Calvinism which made up one third of the Geneva Bible. The Word of God stands alone and Calvinism or any other ism should not be added to it. The KJV was made to bring an english Bible to the people minus the one third (marginal notes) that was not the word of God. This is the reason the marginal notes are called *Calvinism*, because it is not the Word of God, and it had to be removed to preserve the Word of God. The KJV is about 95% exactly the same as the Tyndale translation. The Tyndale translation was polluted by Calvin and his followers, and their "Geneva" version was being spread about Europe. The KJV was commisioned to remove the marginal notes. It has been preserved to this day.
Go and get some books from the library about the reformation and you can read about it for yourself. Don't just believe what one source says, read them all. It is in the history books. Thats where I found out about the reformation and the inquisition. And read all the church history to see what the reformers did and wrote. Then know the scriptures so you can see where they were wrong.
We need to know the scripture, the whole thing, because there is alot of things being said today that do not agree with the scripture. Don't believe everything you read or hear people say but test it against the truth of the scripture. The truth will set you free.
Redeemed: "No doctrine is more man-made than the King James Only doctrine."
King James only = scripture only, how do you support that scripture is man-made??
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