BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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II Timothy 3;16 is perfect, keeping doctrine and inspiration separated.
Scripture is "profitable for doctrine," it is not doctrine.
Is scripture the word of God or not?
You see, I believe that scripture is the words of God (the Word is Jesus Himself, John 1). Scrupture comes before doctrine, doctrine is derived from scripture. Doctrine is based on interpretation, scripture is based on inspiration.
Doctrine can be flawed, for it is a prduct of human minds with the help of the Spirit, but scripture is flawless, for it is the product of the Holy Spirit with the help of human minds.
Scripture is "profitable for doctrine," it is not doctrine.
Is scripture the word of God or not?
You see, I believe that scripture is the words of God (the Word is Jesus Himself, John 1). Scrupture comes before doctrine, doctrine is derived from scripture. Doctrine is based on interpretation, scripture is based on inspiration.
Doctrine can be flawed, for it is a prduct of human minds with the help of the Spirit, but scripture is flawless, for it is the product of the Holy Spirit with the help of human minds.
bill betzler
New member
quote:
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John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This is my doctrine. It is equivalent to the scriptures. It is not one step removed.
The bible says that the HS will lead us into all truth. You can't blame bad doctrine on the HS.
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John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This is my doctrine. It is equivalent to the scriptures. It is not one step removed.
The bible says that the HS will lead us into all truth. You can't blame bad doctrine on the HS.
Doctrine MEANS teaching, that's all! It does NOT necessarily imply the teaching of men!
Man, if all the scripture that has been quoted can't persuade you that Jesus IS the Doctrine of God, then neither will you be persuaded though one rises from the dead!
Jesus IS the Word of God. Scripture verifies this. It doesn't say that He merely spake the Word of God (doctrine), it actually says that He IS God's Word made flesh.
Don't you get that yet?
bill betzler
New member
I understand what you are saying. Very logical. But I disagree, in that I do not think that doctrine is interpretation but rather understanding. Hence, the HS guides us into all truth.
Jaltus, I appreciate the conversation. No hard feelings.
none in the least, Bill.
I think our disagreement is more terminology than anything else. I call doctrine that which is second order only. What you call doctrine I would call "the teaching of scripture" or some such, things that are outright spelled out in scripture. However, things such as the Trinity, which has solid backing in scripture but not a clear, logical formulation, that would be what I call a doctrine.
Rapt,
You said doctrine is teaching. Yes and no. I would call doctrine the teaching of the church. The teaching of Christ I would call scripture. Read my above section to Bill, and you will see it is more a difference of terminology.
I do not want constructs of man confused with constructs of God. God is obviously much better at this than we are. The fall tends to mar even how we think of God, or especially how we think about God.
I think our disagreement is more terminology than anything else. I call doctrine that which is second order only. What you call doctrine I would call "the teaching of scripture" or some such, things that are outright spelled out in scripture. However, things such as the Trinity, which has solid backing in scripture but not a clear, logical formulation, that would be what I call a doctrine.
Rapt,
You said doctrine is teaching. Yes and no. I would call doctrine the teaching of the church. The teaching of Christ I would call scripture. Read my above section to Bill, and you will see it is more a difference of terminology.
I do not want constructs of man confused with constructs of God. God is obviously much better at this than we are. The fall tends to mar even how we think of God, or especially how we think about God.
Huldrych
New member
Waldensians
Waldensians
By all means, do. Feel free to either post it or send it to me via email. I've found quite a bit on them already.
What I would love to get hold of is a copy of their Bible translated into German (electronic or even a hardcopy facsimile), and compare it with Luther (or Zwingli).
Thanks!
jth
Waldensians
By all means, do. Feel free to either post it or send it to me via email. I've found quite a bit on them already.
What I would love to get hold of is a copy of their Bible translated into German (electronic or even a hardcopy facsimile), and compare it with Luther (or Zwingli).
Thanks!
jth
Huldrych
New member
Re: Luther: honest or deranged?
Re: Luther: honest or deranged?
Riiiight. That explains why he worked so hard on translating the Scriptures into German. Not to mention why he used Scripture to denounce abuses within the Catholic Church.
He called James "the epistle of straw" because, at first glance, it seemed to completely contradict the idea of justification by faith which changed his life so much. But note that he included it in the canon of Scripture nonetheless. Every version of the Luther Bible I have (including his own 1545 version) has James in it.
He was extremely impatient with them. He expected them to run to Christ according to his (Luther's) own timetable. When they wouldn't, he decided to pout and and throw temper tantrums over them.
Well, you are entitled to your opinions. But the German Reformation for which he was a major player influenced reforms in the church in England, including the creation of the Authorized Version of the English Bible.
jth
Re: Luther: honest or deranged?
Riiiight. That explains why he worked so hard on translating the Scriptures into German. Not to mention why he used Scripture to denounce abuses within the Catholic Church.
He called James "the epistle of straw" because, at first glance, it seemed to completely contradict the idea of justification by faith which changed his life so much. But note that he included it in the canon of Scripture nonetheless. Every version of the Luther Bible I have (including his own 1545 version) has James in it.
He was extremely impatient with them. He expected them to run to Christ according to his (Luther's) own timetable. When they wouldn't, he decided to pout and and throw temper tantrums over them.
Well, you are entitled to your opinions. But the German Reformation for which he was a major player influenced reforms in the church in England, including the creation of the Authorized Version of the English Bible.
jth
Luther rejected certain books of the bible, yet included them in the canon because a bible without them would never have been accepted by the people.
God used a mule to rebuke Balaam. He used Assyria, Babylon, and Rome to chastize His people. God can use the basest of men to reform a cult as dark as the Catholic church. See, God can even use me to manifest Luther's lies!
He WISHED THEY WERE ALL DEAD, and gave such "advice" to his followers. That's quite a bit worse than deciding to merely "pout and and throw temper tantrums over them". I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be a Jew and live in Luther's jurisdiction! Talk about authoritarian cults! Both Luther and Calvin acted out the practices of many popes...murder in Christ's name.
God used a mule to rebuke Balaam. He used Assyria, Babylon, and Rome to chastize His people. God can use the basest of men to reform a cult as dark as the Catholic church. See, God can even use me to manifest Luther's lies!
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bill betzler
New member
Jaltus,
Thank you for your last post. I too thought terminology was part of our disagreement.
Just fine tuning my explanation a little.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I look at this verse and and read thus: Scripture is profitable for doctrine. So if you quote a scripture and say it is your doctrine you fulfill this verse. If you modify the scriptures in the least, it is no longer scripture and no longer profitable. So necessarily , according to scripture, real doctrine is scripture. This is then the litmus test to judge doctrine by.
Reading the verse this way does not violate your grammatical understanding, which I don't understand. We do not use all of the scripture for our doctrine, therefore , doctrine is a part of scripture. But, we can use any part of it that we wish.
Thank you for your last post. I too thought terminology was part of our disagreement.
Just fine tuning my explanation a little.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I look at this verse and and read thus: Scripture is profitable for doctrine. So if you quote a scripture and say it is your doctrine you fulfill this verse. If you modify the scriptures in the least, it is no longer scripture and no longer profitable. So necessarily , according to scripture, real doctrine is scripture. This is then the litmus test to judge doctrine by.
Reading the verse this way does not violate your grammatical understanding, which I don't understand. We do not use all of the scripture for our doctrine, therefore , doctrine is a part of scripture. But, we can use any part of it that we wish.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
That is just silly. Luther stood up to the entire Catholic tradition facing excommunication and death. Do you really think a little thing like the book of James would have worried him that much?
See, God can even use me to manifest Luther's lies!
Trust me, God is not using in this.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
?
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
yeah, he really must have hated it.
Revelation717
New member
Yet Luther took with him a number of Catholic heresies and traditions and was NOT killed. HMMMM.
Any conspiracy theorists around here?
Revelation717
New member
Anyone ever read The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll?
Those whom broke away from the Catholic Church continued in heresie and murder just as their mother taught them to do.
There has always been the believer who was niether Catholic or Protestant. And they have always been persecuted and even now they are persecuted.
Those whom broke away from the Catholic Church continued in heresie and murder just as their mother taught them to do.
There has always been the believer who was niether Catholic or Protestant. And they have always been persecuted and even now they are persecuted.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
no I have never read it. Never even heard of it actually.
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