BATTLE TALK - Battle Royale III ~ Dee Dee vs. Jerry
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Sola Scriptora
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Jack; This was my ENTIRE brief response to the Ps 110 point:
"Without citing the verses, remember that God said in both Testaments that HE WOULD GATHER the nations to the great Day of battle. It says it in Rev also. Now if God gathers the last of His enemies to a place, and Jesus comes and squashes them, isn't that the same thing?
Otherwise how do you explain this:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right hand of God."
You ignored my first part, and fastened on the second. Why? I think the first part answers your objection, just like I did on the "kingdom Offer" objection you raised.
Acts 7 is an example that your citation of Ps 110 does not preclude our Lord doing things others than being SEATED at The Father's right Hand. Myt point is that ye Preterists are being hyper literal here, and Acts 7 shows it. We aren't even out of the first year since Pentecost and already The Lord is doing things contrary to your ideas of Ps 110.
Psalms 110 DOES NOT hog-tie the Lord in a chair until certain things happen. Obviously it is a general statment, and can be unltimatley fulfilled any way God pleases, preterists not withstanding!
In Revelation One, who comes to the Isle of Patmos to visit John? Why bless my soul, its the Lord Jesus, plainly not complying with the Preterists interpretation of Ps 110!
And in chaptes 4 and 5? Well John sees the Father in His throne, and He also sees the four beasts, the 24 elders around the throne, but where is the Lord Jesus??? Where did He go? He is NOT THERE!
So by Revelation 4, In God's mind, Jesus enemies are made His footstool for we have entered the DAY OF THE LORD. No? Whatever, but your understanding of Psalms 110 is obviously wrong.
Hey, maybe the Lord isn't there because he left to rapture His saints??? Specualtion? Maybe, but it is better than misapplying Ps 110!
Chapter 5? At the right Hand of the Father is---not our Lord Jesus, BUT A BOOK no one is worthy to open. Suddenly a Lamb appears IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and takes the book and will open it. Ps 110 still cannot shackle the Lamb the way preterists wish, so they can DISPROVE dispensationalism! Jesus just keeps ignoring their interpretations.
We get to chap 14, and where is the Lord Jesus???
Rev 14:1
nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
What happened? I guess we're in the Day of the Lord, and everything has changed in heaven and earth. Later in the Chapter, our Lord leaves heaven AGAIN:
Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Well So much for pretersits misinterpretation of Psalms 110. You aked for it, and you got it. Praise God. Thank God His Word interprets itself.
Now Dispensationalists HAVE NO PROBLEM explaining what is going on in all these chapters, for they are self explanatory and harmonize with other portions of Scirpture.
Now friends, this was just a rather elementary refutation of a pretersiost point, MUCH MORE could be said. You all talk big, but no Scriptural substance is in your hot air. You crash like a Lead Zeppelin.
LastLy, Peter tells us in PRESENT TENSE:
1 Peter 3:22
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
KJV
"Without citing the verses, remember that God said in both Testaments that HE WOULD GATHER the nations to the great Day of battle. It says it in Rev also. Now if God gathers the last of His enemies to a place, and Jesus comes and squashes them, isn't that the same thing?
Otherwise how do you explain this:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right hand of God."
You ignored my first part, and fastened on the second. Why? I think the first part answers your objection, just like I did on the "kingdom Offer" objection you raised.
Acts 7 is an example that your citation of Ps 110 does not preclude our Lord doing things others than being SEATED at The Father's right Hand. Myt point is that ye Preterists are being hyper literal here, and Acts 7 shows it. We aren't even out of the first year since Pentecost and already The Lord is doing things contrary to your ideas of Ps 110.
Psalms 110 DOES NOT hog-tie the Lord in a chair until certain things happen. Obviously it is a general statment, and can be unltimatley fulfilled any way God pleases, preterists not withstanding!
In Revelation One, who comes to the Isle of Patmos to visit John? Why bless my soul, its the Lord Jesus, plainly not complying with the Preterists interpretation of Ps 110!
And in chaptes 4 and 5? Well John sees the Father in His throne, and He also sees the four beasts, the 24 elders around the throne, but where is the Lord Jesus??? Where did He go? He is NOT THERE!
So by Revelation 4, In God's mind, Jesus enemies are made His footstool for we have entered the DAY OF THE LORD. No? Whatever, but your understanding of Psalms 110 is obviously wrong.
Hey, maybe the Lord isn't there because he left to rapture His saints??? Specualtion? Maybe, but it is better than misapplying Ps 110!
Chapter 5? At the right Hand of the Father is---not our Lord Jesus, BUT A BOOK no one is worthy to open. Suddenly a Lamb appears IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and takes the book and will open it. Ps 110 still cannot shackle the Lamb the way preterists wish, so they can DISPROVE dispensationalism! Jesus just keeps ignoring their interpretations.
We get to chap 14, and where is the Lord Jesus???
Rev 14:1
nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
What happened? I guess we're in the Day of the Lord, and everything has changed in heaven and earth. Later in the Chapter, our Lord leaves heaven AGAIN:
Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Well So much for pretersits misinterpretation of Psalms 110. You aked for it, and you got it. Praise God. Thank God His Word interprets itself.
Now Dispensationalists HAVE NO PROBLEM explaining what is going on in all these chapters, for they are self explanatory and harmonize with other portions of Scirpture.
Now friends, this was just a rather elementary refutation of a pretersiost point, MUCH MORE could be said. You all talk big, but no Scriptural substance is in your hot air. You crash like a Lead Zeppelin.
LastLy, Peter tells us in PRESENT TENSE:
1 Peter 3:22
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
KJV
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Sola Scriptora
New member
Rev 717 and rapt:
Your posts are a foaming out of nonsense which reveals a total ignorance of how God has used different groups of saints, with different exschatological views and church administration views. It ilso reveals a lack of maturity in discussing these issues, and the fact that you are in the flesh when doing it. You are railing and saying things that are pure ignorance.
According to you, I am not born again, and neither is any other Dispensationalist the last 180 years, including R.A. Torrey, Moody, Dehaan, Ironside, Larkin, Andrew Mueller, and the hundreds of millions that not only follwoed Jesus, but believed the disp understanding of Scripture and prophecy.
You guys are sectarian and divisive.
A knowledgeable, MATURE soul would know that God has used MULITUDES from EVERY THEOLOGICAL CAMP and blessed their sincere endeavors.
So I believe in a "different gospel"? That is as stupid as it is false.
You boys HAVE TO SAY SUCH THINGS to look right, because your arguments are WEAK and easily falsifiable, as my above post demonstrated for Jack.
Now if you want to discuss interpretations as brethren, fine, but these idiotic accusations of Disps believing in a different gospel I will not tolerate.
Get your facts staright before you open your mouths, for it is obvious to me you are NOT WELL READ in either church history or Disp literature.
Have any of you read Clarence Larkin's DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH? Try refuting that point by point, because no one has ever touched it for over 80 years now!
Now again, you need to THINK.
You eschatology is that of ROME. The early church fathers were clearly premillenial and dispensational.
Your eschatology sits well with apostate Protestants, Dosp does not. It annoys them! Think about that.
Your posts are a foaming out of nonsense which reveals a total ignorance of how God has used different groups of saints, with different exschatological views and church administration views. It ilso reveals a lack of maturity in discussing these issues, and the fact that you are in the flesh when doing it. You are railing and saying things that are pure ignorance.
According to you, I am not born again, and neither is any other Dispensationalist the last 180 years, including R.A. Torrey, Moody, Dehaan, Ironside, Larkin, Andrew Mueller, and the hundreds of millions that not only follwoed Jesus, but believed the disp understanding of Scripture and prophecy.
You guys are sectarian and divisive.
A knowledgeable, MATURE soul would know that God has used MULITUDES from EVERY THEOLOGICAL CAMP and blessed their sincere endeavors.
So I believe in a "different gospel"? That is as stupid as it is false.
You boys HAVE TO SAY SUCH THINGS to look right, because your arguments are WEAK and easily falsifiable, as my above post demonstrated for Jack.
Now if you want to discuss interpretations as brethren, fine, but these idiotic accusations of Disps believing in a different gospel I will not tolerate.
Get your facts staright before you open your mouths, for it is obvious to me you are NOT WELL READ in either church history or Disp literature.
Have any of you read Clarence Larkin's DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH? Try refuting that point by point, because no one has ever touched it for over 80 years now!
Now again, you need to THINK.
You eschatology is that of ROME. The early church fathers were clearly premillenial and dispensational.
Your eschatology sits well with apostate Protestants, Dosp does not. It annoys them! Think about that.
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Thank you for that observation. I do think I've been in the flesh at times, and I repent of it now. I've allowed some people's post to aggravate me rather than realizing that I must be gentle with those that haven't been illuminated. It's the goodness of God that leads anyone to repentance, not my harshness. Please forgive me.
Sola Scriptora
New member
Jack:
Your "interpretation" of 2Thess is frightful! It is clearly WRESTING the plain meaning! Any viewpoint that has to "handle" so many passages cannot be true.
Why stop at 2Thess1? Why not write "70AD" ON EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE LORD'S RETURN??? I mean, that is what you guys do every time you are in trouble!
Why not just ELIMINATE the Second coming of Jesus altogether??? Why not? Just write 70AD on them all. They are ALL FULFILLED.
Even though our Lord warned of such ideas and said His coming would light up the Sky like lightning, you guys believe in your INVISIBLE COMING IN 70AD, The Watchtower teaches Jesus came back'Invisibly" in 1914, the Adventists teach it was 1844!
Hello! You are all wrong, and a little crazy I'm afraid.
Only the devil would like to eliminate the idea of the Lord's return from God's people, for it has a purifying-1John 3:3, and prayerful watchful affect on us-Lk 21:36.
Your handling of 1Thess 1 is not exegesis, but absolute mangling of it to fit a preconcieved view. A child can see this.
Do someomore. I would like to see your mangling tactics on 1Thess 4:13-18. That should be interesting.
Then maybe, you can tell us that Titus 2:11-15 does not mean what it says also.
Then try 1Thess 1:10. Tell us how THAT refers to 70AD.
Your "interpretation" of 2Thess is frightful! It is clearly WRESTING the plain meaning! Any viewpoint that has to "handle" so many passages cannot be true.
Why stop at 2Thess1? Why not write "70AD" ON EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE LORD'S RETURN??? I mean, that is what you guys do every time you are in trouble!
Why not just ELIMINATE the Second coming of Jesus altogether??? Why not? Just write 70AD on them all. They are ALL FULFILLED.
Even though our Lord warned of such ideas and said His coming would light up the Sky like lightning, you guys believe in your INVISIBLE COMING IN 70AD, The Watchtower teaches Jesus came back'Invisibly" in 1914, the Adventists teach it was 1844!
Hello! You are all wrong, and a little crazy I'm afraid.
Only the devil would like to eliminate the idea of the Lord's return from God's people, for it has a purifying-1John 3:3, and prayerful watchful affect on us-Lk 21:36.
Your handling of 1Thess 1 is not exegesis, but absolute mangling of it to fit a preconcieved view. A child can see this.
Do someomore. I would like to see your mangling tactics on 1Thess 4:13-18. That should be interesting.
Then maybe, you can tell us that Titus 2:11-15 does not mean what it says also.
Then try 1Thess 1:10. Tell us how THAT refers to 70AD.
Sola Scriptora
New member
mrsnacks:
Unfortunaltey, your argument is merely appealing, but not Scritpural. Notice:
2 Peter 3:1-15
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Nothing is plainer than that Peter applied the "1000 years is one day" analogy to CHRISTIANS. Yes the "end of all things is at hand"-1Peter 4:7, Yet Peter tells us in the Second Epsitle what that means--"At hand" could be a thousdand years because God wants to see many more get saved, and so we must be patient.
Notice:
Romans 13:12
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
KJV
Philippians 4:5
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
KJV
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
KJV
Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV
Revelation 22:10
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
KJV
Peter explains to us what these statements mean. And though some may not like the answer, it is just too bad. "At Hand" can mean 1000 years from now. And the reason is God is not willing that any should perish, but that all repent.
Good enough for me!
So it is proven that God DOES SPEAK THESE THINKS FROM HIS VANTAGE POINT, NOT OURS. And Peter SPECIFICALLY EXPLAINED THIS for us in relation to the coming of the Lord, those who "scoff" at the idea. I hope you see this because Peter really did NOT AGREE WITH YOU.
And again, the end of all things is held out an incentive for holy living. So scoff as you will at Lindsey. Van Impe, Jeffires, Lahaye, etc. You are doing EXACTLY what Peter warned of, and you are taking away a BIBLICAL INCENTIVE FOR HOLY LIVING.
What a miserable vocation.
Unfortunaltey, your argument is merely appealing, but not Scritpural. Notice:
2 Peter 3:1-15
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Nothing is plainer than that Peter applied the "1000 years is one day" analogy to CHRISTIANS. Yes the "end of all things is at hand"-1Peter 4:7, Yet Peter tells us in the Second Epsitle what that means--"At hand" could be a thousdand years because God wants to see many more get saved, and so we must be patient.
Notice:
Romans 13:12
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
KJV
Philippians 4:5
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
KJV
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
KJV
Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV
Revelation 22:10
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
KJV
Peter explains to us what these statements mean. And though some may not like the answer, it is just too bad. "At Hand" can mean 1000 years from now. And the reason is God is not willing that any should perish, but that all repent.
Good enough for me!
So it is proven that God DOES SPEAK THESE THINKS FROM HIS VANTAGE POINT, NOT OURS. And Peter SPECIFICALLY EXPLAINED THIS for us in relation to the coming of the Lord, those who "scoff" at the idea. I hope you see this because Peter really did NOT AGREE WITH YOU.
And again, the end of all things is held out an incentive for holy living. So scoff as you will at Lindsey. Van Impe, Jeffires, Lahaye, etc. You are doing EXACTLY what Peter warned of, and you are taking away a BIBLICAL INCENTIVE FOR HOLY LIVING.
What a miserable vocation.
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Sola Scriptora
New member
I recieve your repentance rapt. God bless you.
Now do you REALLY believe we believe in a different gospel? We believe the following:
1 Cor 15:1-8
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
KJV
Now do you REALLY believe we believe in a different gospel? We believe the following:
1 Cor 15:1-8
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
KJV
Amen, I appreciate your posts, for you are SO RIGHT, mrsnacks. The Jews do NOT worship the same God that Christians do. They do not believe in the same messiah. They DENY God and His Messiah. WHOSOEVER denies the Son denies the Father also, and the Jews are NO EXCEPTION.
What else can you call it? What would Paul have called it? Was Paul "stupid", "ignorant", or "a little crazy" when he condemned the gospel of the Judaizers, and called IT "another gospel? Certainly their arguments against Paul sounded similar to Sola's.
False prophecy and emotional hype is no incentive to live holy, Sola. Peter said that "through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you", and all those men you mentioned have done just that.
Does it cause anyone to live holy once they realize they've been lied to, and see they've been PAYING for those lies for thirty years or more?? I think many who finally realize they've been duped aren't able to endure the humiliation, so they FALL AWAY from Christ because of it instead of being drawn closer to Him. (But the "other gospel" of dispensationalists says that nobody who was once saved even CAN fall away. Wrong.)
The way of truth is being evil spoken of rather than embraced by the unsaved who can see through the expensive media hype of disp'ism. Futurists keep their followers on the edge of their seats by pinning the tail on the antichrist, watching Israel as if that's some clue of the end, frantically waiting to see the rebuilding of the temple (which they blasphemously claim that Paul called "the temple of God"), or by insisting that the great trib will start "ANY DAY NOW", and they've sold their fantasies for years on that note.
Not knowing the scriptures, I swallowed a form of futurism (post trib) back in the 70's. I forsook it in the eighties by the GRACE OF GOD through study of the bible. In the nineties, God showed me that the question "are you pre, mid or post?" is one that entirely msses the mark, because it pre-supposes that futurism is correct in some form. Instead, it should rather be asked "Which prophecies are yet to be fulfilled, and which have already been fulfilled?"
Futurism is another gospel since it claims that Paul called a future, rebuilt temple on earth "the temple of God" that couldn't be that at all, and exalts a people that HATE Jesus Christ, as if they are God's chosen people. Rather than encouraging holiness, futurism UNDERMINES holiness by teaching respect of persons, and exalts the WORSHIP of the Jewish race even more than Christ Himself, for the Jew's denial of Christ is praised as the very reason for our salvation! (Shoud we thank the Jews for our salvation? I think not!) Futurism denies the fulfillment of the very prophecy (Dan 9:24-27), which identified the Messiah and what He was DETERMINED to do to CONFIRM His Messiahship and usher in the New Covenant, making Daniel's prophecy of none effect in order to try to support their future great tribulation/rebuilt temple/literal Jewish millenium reign doctrines. They demolish the truth of the testimony of the prophet Daniel just as they do every other prophet, Christ notwithstanding (remember that Walvoord says that the way of salvation is not revealed in the gospels!).
"Enemies" is a fitting word to describe them that hold futurism. Jesus asked the Pharisees (who like futurists, also held to the idea of a restored and blessed earthly Israeli state regardless of their hatred and unbelief in Christ) "How can you escape the damnation of hell?"
Paul told the Galatians to "let them be accursed" (Gal 1:6-9) who teach such heresies, to avoid them (Rom 16:17,18), to withdraw from them (1Tim 6:3-5KJV), and to not have any fellowship with them, but instead to reprove them (Eph 5:11). It's an unfruitful work of darkness to deny Christ while exalting the Jews. Paul called them "the ENEMIES of the cross of Christ" (Rom 16:17,18) who did so, and just as the first century Jews were Christ's enemies, so are the disps today because of their twisted, perverted, prophecy-denying false gospel, for it DENIES Christ and the apostle's doctrine, and exalts in it's place the doctrines of men. The Judaizing-"Christians" of Paul's day "believed" in Christ too, but that wasn't enough to stop Paul from labeling them like he did. Their doctrine was no better than that of the Pharisees:
Of COURSE it is! Paul says in Hebrews that there IS no more sacrifice for sin! Without faith in Christ, any other sacrifice can be nothing less than an abomination. The OT ceremonial sacrifices have been made obsolete by the blood of Jesus Christ, so for anyone to offer animal sacrifice now would be a DENIAL of Christ.
This is true ESPECIALLY for any professing Christians, though I believe that there are some who WOULD offer animals right along with the unbelieving Jews, and THINK they do God a service, if a temple is ever erected!
Oh, but a few of them HAVE done something, haven't you heard? I read where some futurists have even sent red heifers to Israel so they would all ready to sacrifice once a temple is erected! These futurists think they are hastening the rapture of the church (which they think will happen BEFORE Jews begin sacrificing) to help them prepare to sacrifice animals! They are taught that the Jews will certainly be on earth after the rapture, but rather than preach a loud warning to them, and try to bring them to faith in Christ JESUS, they are content to suppose that the Jews alive during the imagined trib/holocaust will all be saved after the church is raptured, even if it doesn't happen until the day Christ comes yet a THIRD time (which futurists call "the SECOND coming)!
Some "gospel", huh? It is an outright DENIAL of the truth:
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Sola Scriptora
New member
So are the rest of you going to allow rapt to post such lying, divisive, sectarian, legalistic garbage and not challenge it???
So unless you are Preterist, you are not saved???
This individual is insane, and fits the scripture:
Titus 1:15
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
You are polluted with your sectarian doctrine. You are enflamed with hate, not towards evil, but towards your brethren that don't agree with you in regards to eschatology.
You have made it a fundamental of the faith.
You are a narrow-minded bigot.
I don't need to defend myself or the many other fine Christian men of the Dispensational persuasion. Millions of them are in heaven now, with many more to come, thank God! Thank God God doesn't think like rapt!
Lastly, your doctrine came straight from the pit of hell via Rome.
It is a false set of doctrines that make a mockery of all the Bible has to say about end times and the return of the Lord, and yet you think you are orthodox! What a sad joke. Pitiful
So unless you are Preterist, you are not saved???
This individual is insane, and fits the scripture:
Titus 1:15
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
You are polluted with your sectarian doctrine. You are enflamed with hate, not towards evil, but towards your brethren that don't agree with you in regards to eschatology.
You have made it a fundamental of the faith.
You are a narrow-minded bigot.
I don't need to defend myself or the many other fine Christian men of the Dispensational persuasion. Millions of them are in heaven now, with many more to come, thank God! Thank God God doesn't think like rapt!
Lastly, your doctrine came straight from the pit of hell via Rome.
It is a false set of doctrines that make a mockery of all the Bible has to say about end times and the return of the Lord, and yet you think you are orthodox! What a sad joke. Pitiful
Rapt : Thankyou so much for your support and comments. As for Sola Scriptora , I must say he has the instincts and timing of a cornered snake. Wow look out . Sola Scriptora : I'm sorry but your argument regarding the time indicators are merely appealing but not scriptural. Did you notice the apocalyptic language in the passages you were quoting from ?? In 1 John 2 :18 John begins by saying "Children it is the last hour..... " And how did the children know that it was the last hour ??? I know you are aware of the basic rules of biblical interpretation----------When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise. Another point among many I would like to confront you with. Daniel is told to "seal up the book until the end of time, or the time of the end I think He puts it . Then you jump to Revelation 22 and John is told "DO NOT SEAL UP THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK FOR THE TIME IS NEAR ." Rev 1 says "the time is near."----"the events are to take place shortly." Daniel is describing events in the fairly distant future. John in turn receives a vision that is to unfold in the near future. That's why it is to remain open "(Do not seal up ..")John's Revelation is Daniel's book opened. And of course the end of the Jewish economy took place in 70 AD. I find it helpful to quote scholars from your own group .Your buddy Thomas Ice. I quote--"Sometimes Christians read in the Bible about the "last days, ""end times," etc and tend to think that all these phrases all of the time refer to the same thing. This is not the case. Just as in our own lives, there are many endings.....Just because the word "end" is used does not mean that it always refers to the same time.....So it is in the Bible, that "end times " may refer to the end of the current church age or it may refer to oyher times. " All I can say as preterists claim that HISTORY records that Jesus' words in Matthew 24 were fulfilled to the letter in 70 AD. Dispensation needs to be left behind. The apocalyptic language is repeated in Matt 24 : 29-30 Your comment that we preterist think that you futurists are not saved is false. I held to your view for 30 years. During those years I was saved but wrong in my eschatology among other things. You quoted Titus 1:15 and used it against Rapt. It seems you are the one that has to look in the pond of clarity my friend. You seemed to be the one enflamed in hate towards your brethren who don't see it your way . You are the one my friend using the ad-hominem logical fallacy by calling Rapt a narrow -minded bigot. You sound like you were caught in a skin that had gotten too tight. Lighten up and please don't keep your horses in the same drawer as your bellybutton rings. 
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Come on people.........
Let's just keep supporting the actual BR contestants and not have one in the stands. This isn't hockey, ya know.
Let's just keep supporting the actual BR contestants and not have one in the stands. This isn't hockey, ya know.
Salvation is God's work not mine and if my salvation was dependent on me getting everything right I'd be lost.
Romans 7, 8 is all of our hope. "wretched man that I am, I do the very thing I don't want to." I'll requote Whitefield.
"our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are."
Romans 7, 8 is all of our hope. "wretched man that I am, I do the very thing I don't want to." I'll requote Whitefield.
"our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are."
Ok back to the debate. Here are some quotes from round 6 where Dee Dee and Jerry refer to each other.
I removed the quotes you can go read for yourselves.
To summerize:
According to Dee Dee: Jerry, mishandles scholarly sources, does not thoroughly research his sources, puts inanities in Christ's mouth, and needs to be more Biblically literate.
According to Jerry: Dee Dee is inept, does not use her brain, is deceived, has no limit to her credulity, has delusions and will believe anything, no matter how ludicrous.
The old saying for debating: the first who starts insulting the other person, is losing.
I removed the quotes you can go read for yourselves.
To summerize:
According to Dee Dee: Jerry, mishandles scholarly sources, does not thoroughly research his sources, puts inanities in Christ's mouth, and needs to be more Biblically literate.
According to Jerry: Dee Dee is inept, does not use her brain, is deceived, has no limit to her credulity, has delusions and will believe anything, no matter how ludicrous.
The old saying for debating: the first who starts insulting the other person, is losing.
Chivato1969
New member
Not cool
Not cool
In the spirit of the equine theme, you can lead Jerry to Scripture but you can't make him think!
That is just a joke, but seriously, what Jerry did in his last post was very, very uncool. He quoted Psalm 56:5, changed the meaning of it, and then applied it against Dee Dee calling her a person who thinks evil thoughts against God. That is uncool. Jerry changed the meaning by making the speaker of those verses God when originally it was David's complaint against his enemies. That is just not right.
Not cool
In the spirit of the equine theme, you can lead Jerry to Scripture but you can't make him think!
That is just a joke, but seriously, what Jerry did in his last post was very, very uncool. He quoted Psalm 56:5, changed the meaning of it, and then applied it against Dee Dee calling her a person who thinks evil thoughts against God. That is uncool. Jerry changed the meaning by making the speaker of those verses God when originally it was David's complaint against his enemies. That is just not right.
Y
Yxboom
Guest
I'd agree with you but you apparently haven't spent much time reading the other of Dee Dee's posts outside the BR.
I'm as guilty of that as any other person. When one is passonate about what they believe, well where is that quote again..
our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are."
I have also seen Dee Dee apologize. She is human just like Jerry.
our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are."
I have also seen Dee Dee apologize. She is human just like Jerry.
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Dee Dee's apologizing.........:nono:
If that isn't evidence that the end is near!
Oh yea, it already came. :thumb:
If that isn't evidence that the end is near!
Oh yea, it already came. :thumb:
- Status