BATTLE TALK - Battle Royale III ~ Dee Dee vs. Jerry
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Sola Scriptora
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Interesting, watching the mutual admiration society, as if agreeing with whatever someone who holds your view means they posted truth! How circular.
Rev717:
How do I KNOW most Prostestant churches are apostate? How is it YOU DON'T KNOW? You don't know about the great falling away of these denominations?
You are not an avid attentive readers of church hsitory, past or comptemporary, or you'd knw what churches belong to the NCC and the WCC and you'd know what they believe NOW, versus what they believed once upon a glorious time.
Have you read no books on the liberalizing of Prtestantism? I mean, this happened over 100 years ago and has only gotten worse. That is what prompted R.A. Torrey to work with a variety of leaders to produce the work THE FUNDAMENTALS, which teach what true Christian churches should believe, regardless of eschatological and ministrty beliueves, or hierarchical structures. We should hold to the same creeds on a variety of things, and differ where we differ. But the attempt was to state WHAT WAS ORTHODOX whithin the different denominations.
Get THE BETRAYAL OF THE CHURCH by Edmund W Robb. There are many like this.
This always has happened in church history. An on-fire group ususallyt lasts a few genrations, goes dead or apostate, and God raises up new ones.
It is sad that Protestantism, for the most part, is merely secualr, God-denying fake religious hypocrisy now.
THIS IS LAMENTAABLE, BUT TRUE. God has raised up MILLIONS OF OTHERS! Thank you Jesus!
Anyway, read some good Disp books. Clarence Larkin wrote quite a few, as has Ryrie and others.
Now your reasoning is "off" to say the least! If a church that is winning souls to Jesus , discipleing them, leading them to paths of righteousness ALSO is DISP as far as eschatology, then they are APOSTATE, despite allthe other good fruit???
That is demented! Where is THAT in the Bible???
The simple fact that demolishes your hateful, riduculous voewpoints are that Dispensationalists of every denomination have good fruit to the tune of tens of millions of converts and disciples.
So to equate them with heresy, when they are DCOTRINALLY Orthodox and godly is a slanber upon these brethren, and shows how weak your position is.
Rev717:
How do I KNOW most Prostestant churches are apostate? How is it YOU DON'T KNOW? You don't know about the great falling away of these denominations?
You are not an avid attentive readers of church hsitory, past or comptemporary, or you'd knw what churches belong to the NCC and the WCC and you'd know what they believe NOW, versus what they believed once upon a glorious time.
Have you read no books on the liberalizing of Prtestantism? I mean, this happened over 100 years ago and has only gotten worse. That is what prompted R.A. Torrey to work with a variety of leaders to produce the work THE FUNDAMENTALS, which teach what true Christian churches should believe, regardless of eschatological and ministrty beliueves, or hierarchical structures. We should hold to the same creeds on a variety of things, and differ where we differ. But the attempt was to state WHAT WAS ORTHODOX whithin the different denominations.
Get THE BETRAYAL OF THE CHURCH by Edmund W Robb. There are many like this.
This always has happened in church history. An on-fire group ususallyt lasts a few genrations, goes dead or apostate, and God raises up new ones.
It is sad that Protestantism, for the most part, is merely secualr, God-denying fake religious hypocrisy now.
THIS IS LAMENTAABLE, BUT TRUE. God has raised up MILLIONS OF OTHERS! Thank you Jesus!
Anyway, read some good Disp books. Clarence Larkin wrote quite a few, as has Ryrie and others.
Now your reasoning is "off" to say the least! If a church that is winning souls to Jesus , discipleing them, leading them to paths of righteousness ALSO is DISP as far as eschatology, then they are APOSTATE, despite allthe other good fruit???
That is demented! Where is THAT in the Bible???
The simple fact that demolishes your hateful, riduculous voewpoints are that Dispensationalists of every denomination have good fruit to the tune of tens of millions of converts and disciples.
So to equate them with heresy, when they are DCOTRINALLY Orthodox and godly is a slanber upon these brethren, and shows how weak your position is.
Sola Scriptora
New member
Jack, I forgot about Ps 110. I don't see how this helps your case, for when Jesus returns in Rev 19, he demolishes all His foes. He TREADS THE WINEPRESS of the fury of the wrath of God. Sounds like footstools are being made.
Now, what about what you said about the Kingdom and my response? You didn't comment. Do you concede that it really ISN'T the problem anti-disps make it out to be? I think it is obvious that it is a strawman, and the scriputures I cited prove that.
Now, what about what you said about the Kingdom and my response? You didn't comment. Do you concede that it really ISN'T the problem anti-disps make it out to be? I think it is obvious that it is a strawman, and the scriputures I cited prove that.
Hey Sola,
Human beings are truly amazing creatures. We both read the same history and come up with two completely different conclusions. I have supported the conclusion I have arrived at based on the fruit of the generations in question. What facts do you use to support your conclusion?
You are correct Rev 19 is in fact footstool making. The problem comes with Jesus returning to do the footstool making when Pslam 110 clearly states he will remain at the right hand of God "until" all His enmies are made His footstool. So we are left with a problem. How can Jesus being doing both at the same time? My solution to this problem is to look at the time text in Revelation and take them for what they say. Revelations starts with soon and ends with soon. So if I take God at His Word Revalations was to happen soon. I will not even begin to claim to understand how this works out with every verse, but it is very clear and I must go with the clear over the unclear.
You have not given me your solution to this problem. You have ignored it just as I have ignored the Kingdom portion of your post. I was just trying to keep the converstion to small managable chunks. I do not agree with your conclusions at all. I see nothing in what you posted that says Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews. But I don't want to go there now. We are still dealing with the paradox of Psalm 110 and Rev 19. I will ask you this, which one is repeated most in the Bible?
Human beings are truly amazing creatures. We both read the same history and come up with two completely different conclusions. I have supported the conclusion I have arrived at based on the fruit of the generations in question. What facts do you use to support your conclusion?
You are correct Rev 19 is in fact footstool making. The problem comes with Jesus returning to do the footstool making when Pslam 110 clearly states he will remain at the right hand of God "until" all His enmies are made His footstool. So we are left with a problem. How can Jesus being doing both at the same time? My solution to this problem is to look at the time text in Revelation and take them for what they say. Revelations starts with soon and ends with soon. So if I take God at His Word Revalations was to happen soon. I will not even begin to claim to understand how this works out with every verse, but it is very clear and I must go with the clear over the unclear.
You have not given me your solution to this problem. You have ignored it just as I have ignored the Kingdom portion of your post. I was just trying to keep the converstion to small managable chunks. I do not agree with your conclusions at all. I see nothing in what you posted that says Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews. But I don't want to go there now. We are still dealing with the paradox of Psalm 110 and Rev 19. I will ask you this, which one is repeated most in the Bible?
Sola Scriptora
New member
Jack;
Without citing the verses, remember that God said in both Testments that HE WOULD GATHER the nations to the great Day of battle. It says it in Rev also. Now if God gathers the last of His enemies to a place, and Jesus comes and squashes them, isn't that the same thing?
Otherwise how do you explain this:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right hand of God.
KJV
I think you get the point?
Also, "soon" to us and "soon" in God's time can be very different! One day with God can be a thousand years! So if our Lord Jesus returned in 10 years, it would mean He came back two days after he left.
Now honestly, can anyone reading 2Thess 2, and Rev 19 come to any other conclusion that this is a cataclysmic return of the Lord upon the earth to destroy evil and set up his Kingdom? Come on now!
For people to say that it is 70AD or symbolizes Jesus conquering the world via the gospel is just TOO MUCH! I leave with this scripture:
2 Thess 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV
This HAS NOT HAPPENED in 70AD, but is simply a companion passage to MAtt 24, 29-31, Rev 19, 2Thess 2:1-13, 2Tim 4:1-2.
Without citing the verses, remember that God said in both Testments that HE WOULD GATHER the nations to the great Day of battle. It says it in Rev also. Now if God gathers the last of His enemies to a place, and Jesus comes and squashes them, isn't that the same thing?
Otherwise how do you explain this:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right hand of God.
KJV
I think you get the point?
Also, "soon" to us and "soon" in God's time can be very different! One day with God can be a thousand years! So if our Lord Jesus returned in 10 years, it would mean He came back two days after he left.
Now honestly, can anyone reading 2Thess 2, and Rev 19 come to any other conclusion that this is a cataclysmic return of the Lord upon the earth to destroy evil and set up his Kingdom? Come on now!
For people to say that it is 70AD or symbolizes Jesus conquering the world via the gospel is just TOO MUCH! I leave with this scripture:
2 Thess 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV
This HAS NOT HAPPENED in 70AD, but is simply a companion passage to MAtt 24, 29-31, Rev 19, 2Thess 2:1-13, 2Tim 4:1-2.
Wow, Dee Dee's latest post is quite solidly written (though she did fail to mention WHERE the Greek authorities she mentions agree with her, meaning she does not meantion a specific work for Gingrich and Arndt, IIRC).
A solid argument for genea. I think Jerry chose poorly to attempt that tact without a more thorough grounding in the usage of the word. A quick look at NT usage would give him much more ammo.
At this point in time, I have Dee Dee well ahead on my scorecard.
A solid argument for genea. I think Jerry chose poorly to attempt that tact without a more thorough grounding in the usage of the word. A quick look at NT usage would give him much more ammo.
At this point in time, I have Dee Dee well ahead on my scorecard.
Amen, and that INCLUDES the disp churches. They're the WORST ones!
Scripture says "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". Dispensationalism is poisonous because it twists the entire New Testament to say that the whole reason anyone is saved is because of the Jews! Worship and praise for salvation is turned from Jesus Christ to worshipping the Jewish race and faith in THIER decisions. The expectation is turned from waiting for Christ Jesus and the EVERLASTING KINGDOM made up of only righteous immortal beings unto another imagined temperary EARTHLY kingdom of Jewish rule, where yet fleshly beings will abide, and sin still dwells. Rather than teaching that the temple of God is the church, disps teach that there will be a literal Jewish temple rebuilt, and THAT temple will abide as the temple of God during their imagined 1000 year earthly rule.
And you think there's no OTHER GOSPEL being taught by disps? THIS is the "gospel" they go about "winning souls" with?? UGGGH! They're SUBVERTING souls, not winning them to the Jesus of the Bible! Paul said to let such a gospel be ACCURSED, because it doesn't WIN anyone to God; it causes Christ to become of NO EFFECT to those who had already believed and received the Holy Ghost, and causes them to FALL FROM GRACE.
I would, as Paul, that they were cut off which pervert the gospel with disp doctrine.
Scripture says they were all already fulfilled:
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Sola Scriptora : Welcome to the front lines. I want to respond to your comment that the word "soon " to us and "soon "to God's time can be very different. What you have failed to realize is that God is communicating to his people in their language, that present generation about what was about to take place SHORTLY. I am sure that God the Father communicates to God the Son or Holy Spirit in ways that are higher than human language. But God is coming down to our level and it's like me communicating to a young child. I would communicate to the child differently than I would to a grown-up. It makes sense that my objective as a teacher , a good teacher following the examples of Jesus , is to make sure the student gets the message correctly and understands what I am saying. When Jesus said that He would raise His body (the temple of His body ) in three days-----did you ever think that He was talking about His resurrection taking place 3000 years from that point ??? You failed to quote the rest of the verse which Disp often do, and that is a thousand years is a day to the Lord. So when I read that it rained 40 days and 40 nights in Genesis 7, does that mean I should interpret that passage as lasting 40,000 human days and 40,000 human nights????? Answer me . God said He created the universe and everything in it in 6 days. So that means 6000 years right ???? If I'm wrong , tell me why I'm wrong . I'm following your logic. Just make sure you are consistent and follow it also. The millennium is to last 1000 years if taken literally in your view. That means ONE DAY according to God. I think you get my point. You brought up Revelation. Let's take a quick look. Revelation 1 I pick up from verse one ."God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to his bond servants certain things WHICH MUST SHORTLY SHORTLY SHORTLY AND SPEEDILY SPEEDILY SPEEDILY COME TO PASS IN THIER ENTIRETY. I repeat " IN THEIR ENTIRETY."We move to verse 7 . " Behold He is coming with clouds , and every eye will see Him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM . "I'll stop there . He is coming with clouds. That is apocalyptic language meaning in judgement. Those who pierced him will see Him. A child can even understand that passage , but Disp are surrounded by God's angels and truth with blindfolds on. Let's skip to the end of Revelation. "SURELY I AM COMING QUICKLY." Revelation 22:10 "THE PERIOD OF THEIR FULFILLMENT IS NEAR."Verse 12 --"BEHOLD I AM COMING SOOOOOOOON." In the Amplified Bible it says in Matthew 24 :34-Truly I tell you (Who the heck is He talking to ??) " THIS GENERATION (THE WHOLE MULTITUDE OF PEOPLE LIVING AT THE SAME TIME IN A DEFINITE, GIVEN PERIOD) WILL NOT PASS AWAY TILL ALL THESE THINGS TAKEN TOGETHER TAKES PLACE."Explain Matt 16: 28 please . Jesus tells the Disciples "THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." How can you honestly say Jesus is talking to us today. i DON'T EVEN WANT TO GET INTO THE GAP YOU ALL PUT IN THE 70 WEEKS OF Daniel . The 80's R and B band "The GAP BAND" should sue you all for stealing their name and using it without proper approval. You started my tractor and I've ruuning out of fuel for now so I've got to wrap this up. I held to the futurist view for 30 years and studied eschatology under Lindsey. It was a lot of fun I must say, pinning the pin on the anti-christ. To think I held those views makes me sick , only because I hate being wrong ,especially for such a long period of time. Study and read what happened in 70 Ad. Futurists are marching to the beat of a dead horse, I'm sorry.
Revelation717
New member
Another solid post by Dee Dee.
Reading her post brought another point I hadn't considered.
Dee Dee said, "If Jerry wants to support the idea that Matthew 12:45 and Matthew 23:36 are referring to the whole Jewish race, then he has just condemned ALL Jews of ALL time as hideously wicked, demonized, and guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. "
This is true if we are to accept Jerry's idea of the genea interpretation in this passage. Jerry's idea for this interpretation has been proven with countless witnesses to be false and even illogical but I think he cannot admit it and digs the his hole deeper and deeper.
If we accept Jerry's interpretation of genea (generation) in this context/passage then Jerry's idea of future blessings and promises being given to Israel contradicts what he claims this Scripture is saying.
If Matthew 12:45, 23:36 means Israel as a whole nation and NOT a specific time then Israel surely receives a curse NOT a blessing. They are doomed NOT saved.
Dee Dee's answers to the Lord coming in the clouds is Scriptural but this is THE HARDEST part to understand I think. I know it is for me.
I hope this is the focus of the next couple posts.
The poll is tied.
Is their anyone that is still waiting to cast their vote?
Reading her post brought another point I hadn't considered.
Dee Dee said, "If Jerry wants to support the idea that Matthew 12:45 and Matthew 23:36 are referring to the whole Jewish race, then he has just condemned ALL Jews of ALL time as hideously wicked, demonized, and guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. "
This is true if we are to accept Jerry's idea of the genea interpretation in this passage. Jerry's idea for this interpretation has been proven with countless witnesses to be false and even illogical but I think he cannot admit it and digs the his hole deeper and deeper.
If we accept Jerry's interpretation of genea (generation) in this context/passage then Jerry's idea of future blessings and promises being given to Israel contradicts what he claims this Scripture is saying.
If Matthew 12:45, 23:36 means Israel as a whole nation and NOT a specific time then Israel surely receives a curse NOT a blessing. They are doomed NOT saved.
Dee Dee's answers to the Lord coming in the clouds is Scriptural but this is THE HARDEST part to understand I think. I know it is for me.
I hope this is the focus of the next couple posts.
The poll is tied.
Is their anyone that is still waiting to cast their vote?
Sola,
mrsnacks did a fine job on "soon" so I'll leave that be.
Psalm 110 will not go away even if you ignore it. It is still there offereing Biblical contradiction to your belief.
Acts 7 :55-56??? What is your point? Jesus is standing, so Psalm 110 is wrong???
In this verse you quote where is Jesus? At the right hand of God! Maybe Jesus is standing to show honor for Steven's courage, who knows, but He is still at the right hand.
2 Thess 1:7-10. There two ways that we can go here.
1) What is there in this verse that says it is talking about the same events that Revelations is?? (While I agree with you that it is, it is possible that it actually is not.)
2) Let us assume it is talking about the same events. What is there in here that did not happen in 70 AD?
Verse 7 includes OT imagery of Judgment. Dee Dee handles this very well in her latest post.
Verse 8. Where the Jews following the Gospel? No the Priests had rejected Christ and were killing Christians. I like the reference here to flame, how was the Temple destroyed? Why it burned down.
Verse 9. 70 AD sounds like punishment to me.
Verse 10. So has Christ been glorified in his saints and admired since 70 AD. Why yes, the church keeps getting bigger and bigger.
mrsnacks did a fine job on "soon" so I'll leave that be.
Psalm 110 will not go away even if you ignore it. It is still there offereing Biblical contradiction to your belief.
Acts 7 :55-56??? What is your point? Jesus is standing, so Psalm 110 is wrong???
In this verse you quote where is Jesus? At the right hand of God! Maybe Jesus is standing to show honor for Steven's courage, who knows, but He is still at the right hand.
2 Thess 1:7-10. There two ways that we can go here.
1) What is there in this verse that says it is talking about the same events that Revelations is?? (While I agree with you that it is, it is possible that it actually is not.)
2) Let us assume it is talking about the same events. What is there in here that did not happen in 70 AD?
Verse 7 includes OT imagery of Judgment. Dee Dee handles this very well in her latest post.
Verse 8. Where the Jews following the Gospel? No the Priests had rejected Christ and were killing Christians. I like the reference here to flame, how was the Temple destroyed? Why it burned down.
Verse 9. 70 AD sounds like punishment to me.
Verse 10. So has Christ been glorified in his saints and admired since 70 AD. Why yes, the church keeps getting bigger and bigger.
To All: I do apologize for coming off in a little harsh there earlier. I will give a reason, which is not an excuse. It gets so frustrating sometimes in communication when someone doesn't see what I see and to me it's so obvious. Sort of like the emperor has no clothes. But I've realized that the Lord has been very patient with me in my lifetime being very merciful and forgiving in my disobedience and ignorance and I should extend the same to other brothers and sisters. It's hard when the others come off a little cocky, sarcastic and rude as in the case of Sola Scriptora. He started my tractor and I went off. But the truth is no one can drive us crazy ,or get us that upset unless we give them the keys. We should never hand anyone the keys. So when I read the debate and Dee Dee by the way is doing a wonderful job slicing and dicing at the low hanging grapes of futurism, and I see Jerry and Sola Scriptora responses defending a view I personally think and believe has more holes than a thousand Krispy Kreme doughnuts , ( man I'm hungry) I am astounded. The doughnuts made taste great, but they are not good for your health.Take a look at some of the many prophecy books out there in the past 30 years with that futurist view and tell me something ain't wrong. Cobra helicopters are the "locusts" in Revelation ; Jack Van (broken record) Impe and Rexella for goodness sake with his Jesus is coming any day now lecture for the past 20 some years and his altar calls to the unbelievers to come to Christ before it's too late begging them to come . Is that the way to present the Gospel message ?? It's by the power of the Holy Spirit, that one's eyes are opened , not by appeals to emotion and fear based works evangelism. This is the christianity I was taught and practiced for many years. And I had to spend many years praying ,unlearning and diligently studying (thanks to the leading of the Holy Spirit ) to release me from all these untruths. Thanks to Gary Demar, Greg Bahnsen and Dee Dee for turning my arguments for my futurism to mush. Please everyone, read what Dee Dee is saying in the debate. Take her seriously . Pray to the Lord about the truth of the matters discussed concerning this "Last Days Madness." Read the works of Josephus (it's free on the web) about what took place in 70 AD and look me straight in the eye and tell me that wasn't the Great Trib. Read Matthew 24 in context and ask, who is Jesus talking to ??? Is He talking about the end of the world or the end of the age ?? Is the Great Trib a local event or global. Where's the rapture in those passages??? Do you see anything about the temple must be rebuilt in any of those verses ? Does it make sense that Jesus would be telling the Disciples about events in the 21st century that had nothing to do with them and that present generation ?? Would it make sense that God would seek vengeance upon that generation of Jews who crucified the Son and rejected Him??? If some gang of thugs beat up and murdered your son or daughter and you found out who they were . What sense would it make to not judge them and to let them go , but take it out on their future (2000 years now) distant relatives. What would our criminal justice system be like if Congress would tomorrow pass a law that the one who commits murder and is found guilty of that crime, the punishment would be that we would seek the death penalty not on the person who committed the crime of murder , but a distant relative 2000 years from that day . How can anyone defend the writings of LaHaye , Lindsey , concerning prophecy and say it's the gospel truth. There are numerous false predictions and redefining terms all thru their books and tapes. But no christian talk show host has the guts to call them on it. Why ?? And Jerry is defending that worldview. I heard James White answer a critic in a debate that we've been living in the last days for the past 2000 years. How much sense does that make ?? Words become meaningless when they don't mean what they are supposed to mean. If I say to you I'll see you in a day . I define a day being it could mean tomorrow, 5 days from now or even 20 years from now. I think you get the drift. I know this is rather lengthy , but I am away a lot and don't get the chance to respond almost daily like some of you. But I got a lot off my chest. Both Jerry and Dee Dee are doing a great job making the debate a classic on TOL. But my vote is for Dee Dee. 
Jack S : Good to see you are still around these parts. It's funny . When I held to the futurist view I used to along with my futurist friends get excited when news of the rebuilding of the Jewish temple was mentioned by Jeffries or Lindsey. Didn't the Romans destroy the temple in 70 AD as prophecied by Jesus? Wasn't it left desolate ? Is not the temple of our bodies the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit ?? Why should anyone be excited ,now that I look back, that some Jews in Israel have been planning now for how long in rebuilding the very temple that Jesus had destroyed in judgement. Isn't the planning of the temple and the reinstitution of sacrifices an abomination to God ?? If the Trib is future as Jerry holds to in the debate. Why is it that futurists haven't done anything to stop Jews from going to Israel if such a terrible holocaust will take place there where millions will lose their lives ? Doesn't God's word say that those who reject the Son , rejects the Father ?? So doesn't that mean they (the unbelieving Jew ) have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible ?? When I was involved as a futurist, we would talk against the atheists, skeptics, the cults ,but when it came to the unbelieving Jew , it was like you could not say anything critical of them or Israel as a nation . We go soft on them . Jesus wasn't soft on them. Why is that we do ??? We say to the Mormon and Jehovah Witness that they have a different Jesus and that Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. So isn't it true of present day Judaism that even their God is not the God of Christianity ??? Just some thoughts .
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Novice : Saying an argument is awful doesn't make it awful. What is your argument ?? How do preterists miss the so called plot of the Bible ?? Answer our arguments. You are not being rude by the way . You are being a coward and your not operating biblically. If we preterist are so wrong in missing the plot of the Bible , than show us lovingly the error of our ways being that you know the "plot." Anyone can say anything , but do you have the support for what you believe or are your feet firmly planted in mid- air ?? Don't chicken out and cry sheep. Look forward to your response.
Revelation717
New member
Jack made a very good point, I too agree that we should all pray that we may know the truth concerning this matter. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
The debate has already established some fine points and I will try to lay them out as unbiasedly as I can.
#1The Temple spoken of in the Olivet Discourse is the same Temple that stood during that discourse and the same temple that fell during 70 AD.
* Even Jerry has agreed this is so right from the beginning but later he argues that due to continuity a new temple would also be the same temple.
> Yet he has failed to provide Scripture of yet a third temple.
> Jesus asked His disciples to LOOK at the Temple that was then standing and explained to them that not ONE stone would be left upon another.
* Futurists may have difficulty understanding what Jesus said but I am SURE the Lord's Apostles knew EXACTLY what was happening when they saw the Temple razed in 70 AD "WITHOUT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER"
* To follow logically with Jerry and the Scripture we must then argue that not only will there be another exact and precise occurance of the 70 AD destruction( with No Scripture) but that the 3rd Temple will be built of the SAME STONES as the one that fell.
When one looks at this logically and Scripture and history both verify it's meaning and significance the answer is rather obvious. But due to hardness of heart and through much covetessness of hoping and waiting for imaginations to be justified one needs to ignore ALL Scriptural exhortation and historical documentation to simply follow the imaginations of the heart (which by the way are exceedingly wicked).
It would be almost likened to the unbelieving Jews who saw ALL the prophets and ALL the LAW testify that Jesus IS Messiah but yet DENY ALL WITNESSES and still wait for the Messiah.
Why can futurists see this as vainity YET themselves love vanity?
This MUST be the reason Disps preach so fervently that the Jews shall be saved, as if their vainity and imaginations will someday IN THE FUTURE be JUSTIFIED.
Another Gospel?
#2 The use of the word generation can either mean "contemporaries" or "race of people".
* By it meaning "race of people" the futurists and Jerry contradict their own plan of salvation saying that:
> The entire race of Jews will be guilty of ALL righteous blood - this of course was climaxed by the murder of Jesus who is everlasting righteousness.
> The entire race of Jews will be saved and receive promises regardless of their acceptance of Messiah.
* By it meaning "contemporaries" the preterist confirms that the generation that murdered the Everlasting Righteousness will be guilty of killing ALL righteousness.
> This not only makes sense but when you look it actually seems fitting for the crime. The punishment fits the crime, God is justified.
> This also puts the time frame in perspective and prophecy is justified because it WAS during that generation that judgement fell on the Jews.
The tribulation of the Jews brought on by the Roman armies were extremely terrible. The historian Josephus records of this time that one woman had killed and roasted her infant son. After she had eaten half she hid the other half. The starving Jews then smelled the scent of flesh and would hace killed her if she hadn't shown them where she kept it. She uncovered the little body and said, "Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not pretend to be more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother." The men left the house trembling.
But even Moses spoke of this time:
De:28:53: And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
De:28:54: So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
De:28:55: So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
De:28:56: The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
De:28:57: And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
The Great Tribulation is OVER. Dee Dee's points are not only Scriptural but can be historically proven. Jerry has not even painted a picture of what and why and how the Trib will be future but through some vague reasoning has crafted some abstract art ALL HIS OWN that no one can understand.
The debate has already established some fine points and I will try to lay them out as unbiasedly as I can.
#1The Temple spoken of in the Olivet Discourse is the same Temple that stood during that discourse and the same temple that fell during 70 AD.
* Even Jerry has agreed this is so right from the beginning but later he argues that due to continuity a new temple would also be the same temple.
> Yet he has failed to provide Scripture of yet a third temple.
> Jesus asked His disciples to LOOK at the Temple that was then standing and explained to them that not ONE stone would be left upon another.
* Futurists may have difficulty understanding what Jesus said but I am SURE the Lord's Apostles knew EXACTLY what was happening when they saw the Temple razed in 70 AD "WITHOUT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER"
* To follow logically with Jerry and the Scripture we must then argue that not only will there be another exact and precise occurance of the 70 AD destruction( with No Scripture) but that the 3rd Temple will be built of the SAME STONES as the one that fell.
When one looks at this logically and Scripture and history both verify it's meaning and significance the answer is rather obvious. But due to hardness of heart and through much covetessness of hoping and waiting for imaginations to be justified one needs to ignore ALL Scriptural exhortation and historical documentation to simply follow the imaginations of the heart (which by the way are exceedingly wicked).
It would be almost likened to the unbelieving Jews who saw ALL the prophets and ALL the LAW testify that Jesus IS Messiah but yet DENY ALL WITNESSES and still wait for the Messiah.
Why can futurists see this as vainity YET themselves love vanity?
This MUST be the reason Disps preach so fervently that the Jews shall be saved, as if their vainity and imaginations will someday IN THE FUTURE be JUSTIFIED.
Another Gospel?
#2 The use of the word generation can either mean "contemporaries" or "race of people".
* By it meaning "race of people" the futurists and Jerry contradict their own plan of salvation saying that:
> The entire race of Jews will be guilty of ALL righteous blood - this of course was climaxed by the murder of Jesus who is everlasting righteousness.
> The entire race of Jews will be saved and receive promises regardless of their acceptance of Messiah.
* By it meaning "contemporaries" the preterist confirms that the generation that murdered the Everlasting Righteousness will be guilty of killing ALL righteousness.
> This not only makes sense but when you look it actually seems fitting for the crime. The punishment fits the crime, God is justified.
> This also puts the time frame in perspective and prophecy is justified because it WAS during that generation that judgement fell on the Jews.
The tribulation of the Jews brought on by the Roman armies were extremely terrible. The historian Josephus records of this time that one woman had killed and roasted her infant son. After she had eaten half she hid the other half. The starving Jews then smelled the scent of flesh and would hace killed her if she hadn't shown them where she kept it. She uncovered the little body and said, "Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not pretend to be more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother." The men left the house trembling.
But even Moses spoke of this time:
De:28:53: And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
De:28:54: So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
De:28:55: So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
De:28:56: The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
De:28:57: And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
The Great Tribulation is OVER. Dee Dee's points are not only Scriptural but can be historically proven. Jerry has not even painted a picture of what and why and how the Trib will be future but through some vague reasoning has crafted some abstract art ALL HIS OWN that no one can understand.
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Revelation717
New member
Jack,
Your in Dayton, Ohio? I'm in Columbus. We're neighbors!
Your in Dayton, Ohio? I'm in Columbus. We're neighbors!
And, I'm about 50 miles west of Cincinatti. Cool!
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