BATTLE TALK - Battle Royale III ~ Dee Dee vs. Jerry

[Sola Scriptora]

I am a preterist, postmillenial, Trinitarian, says Dee Dee. Well so is the Roman Catholic Cult! As a matter of fact,they are the ones who INVENTED Dee Dees eschatoligical views! The church will convert the world--i.e., Rome will conquer the world by any means neccessary, like the crusades, then Jesus will come after 1000 years of the golden age of church rule on the earth!

O how very nice! Augustine, the great heretic, came up with this scenario. It is not the beliefs of the early church, as even a cursory reading of Ante-Nicene materials reveals. It is a concocted theory to bolster Rome's lust for world dominance.

Hitler was a good preterist, Postmillenial, Anti semitic born and Baptized Roman Catholic. He and Pope Pius were friends and signed concordats together.

Dee Dees eschatology is the eschatology of ROME. And Rome is clever in arguement, but still wrong.

 

[JackS]

Well Sola Scriptora needs to read his/her Bible.

Dominion is a very Biblical concept. Try Genesis 22:17; Isaiah 9:6-7, Psalm 2; Psalm 110. You will find that actual word used over 16 times in the Bible. (Youngs Literal Translation) It is not an invention of the Roman Catholic church. But lets just say for arguments sake that Sola is correct. What we have here is this type of logic in action.

Person A is incorrect about point z. Thus if Person A is incorrect about point z, they are thus incorrect about everything. This is a logical falacy. If the Roman Catholic Church is a cult as Sola charges, it is a logical falicy to assume that they will be incorrect about everything. Now the charge that they created the PostMill doctrine is presented as subjective nonsense. What if I were to say that Dee Dee created PostMill thinking because it made her feet get bigger. I have just presented as much evidence as Sola did to support their claim.

As far a Hitler goes, man his name gets thrown around a lot. Its the old discredit by association ploy. Now I am going to make an assumption, that for one to be PostMil as Dee Dee argues, one must be a Christian. Now I will venture to say that Hitler was not a Christian. I know that is a real stretch, but I think he failed the fruit of the Spirit test and the "If you love me, you will do as I command" test.
Every person I know who holds the PostMill view are Christians and I think we'd agree that being a member of a church does not make one a Christian.

BTW Sola you might try using some of that Scripture you are talking about to refute Dee Dee instead of unfounded accusations.

Read Isaiah 9:6 -7 again. You see that part at the end of 7, it says "the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this." Yep man can use scripture to say they are going to take control, but as Psalm 2 points out, "God scoffs and laughs at them."

 

[JackS]

Jerry,

Here is the point you did not address, which was the entire point of Dee Dee's first post.


She said:
"It was in 70AD. If that is “one” of “all these things,” then ALL of the rest of that passage, at least up to Matthew 24:33, Luke 21:31, and Mark 13:31 happened in the first century as well. It is inescapable. The destruction the then existing Temple is a completely unique, datable, and nonrepeatable event. If the prophecy was not primarily fulfilled in the first century, it can never be."

While you did address that some of these verses did apply to 70 AD, you did not address her main point at all. You don't need to reply here, but I think this is the point Dee Dee was trying to make. You can cross this bridge if you want in one of your replies.

 

[Explosived]

"I am a preterist, postmillenial, Trinitarian, says Dee Dee. Well so is the Roman Catholic Cult! "


Is this statement true?

 

[Cherith]

Jerry's Opening Comments

Jerry's Opening Comments

The only point in round 1 and 2 that I seem to disagree with Dee Dee on is her use of the word "disjunctive." I think the more appropriate word for what Jerry does in his opening comments is "discursive."

DISCURSIVE: Wandering from one topic to another; rambling; digressive.

If he could actually stick to the topic AT HAND then it would be a far more fruitful debate.

Some examples:

1st paragraph - He mentions PROPHETIC TIME (whatever that is), the MAN OF SIN, the TEMPLE of God (would love to debate him myself on that topic).

2nd sentence - attack on the Catholics as well as the historical, orthodox, preterist position.

3rd sentence - again not on topic, references ANTICHRIST (w/o references to the only passages where this terminology is used in Scripture), SATAN, his BINDing and the BOTTOMLESS PIT. Not a word about the GREAT TRIBULATION.

4th sentence - "those of US who are GUIDED BY the Scriptures ... KNOW..." Prejudicial language. Ad hom. Mere assertion with no facts. "WE KNOW that the great trib. has NOT YET come to pass." Well, how does he KNOW. Is this pleading for special insight - i.e. Gnosticism? Reminds me of something the Jews said regarding Jesus - "we know..."

5th sentence - "DeeDee is unable to distinguish... However, Scripture does distinquish..." It appears to me that Jerry cannot distinguish between events. He talks about an attack WITH NO RELIEF and an attack WITH RELIEF. If one were to put his arguments in parallel columns you would see his ref. to Lk 21:20 under NO RELIEF and a PARALLEL ref. to Matt 24:15, Dan 11:36, 45, 12:1 under the RELIEF column. PARALLEL meaning that he says regarding the SAME EVENT that it has "no relief" and "has relief."! Early case of schizophrenia perhaps?

Jerry goes on not to deal with the crux of the problem - viz., the TIME REFERENCES.

I suggest to Dee Dee that she ask Jerry a couple of questions:

1. What makes the tribulation "great" - whether it was in the 1st century or whether it will be in the last?

2. Why did the disciples (they were not yet distinctly named as apostles) use the word aion (for age) when questioning the Lord if what they were really wondering about was the end of the world [i.e. the cosmos]?

Jerry says that the Lord is answering their question about "ANOTHER ASSAULT on Jerusalem" and yet the Lord brackets His answers regarding this singular event with the phrase "this generation."

Regarding "generation" [genea], I have a problem with Jerry's position in Round 2(?). I am a genealogist. I defy Jerry or any diSpENSATIONALalist to go over to genealogy.com or ancestry.com and try and tell the family historians over there that what they're actually researching is an ethnic group and not their immediate family tree - their generations! "This is the book of the generations..." begins Matthew...

Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews that what makes them children of the devil is that they continually ratify their unbelief and their connection to their forefathers in that they killed the prophets. This did not "father" Abraham... Christ (and His disciples) could rightly call Himself a child of Abraham BECAUSE He exhibited "like precious faith" as the spiritual head of the nation did thousands of years before.

The SOURCES for the Christians escaping are in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History and another early Christian historian whose name at the moment escapes me. (It starts with an "A".)

The last thing that I'll include for now is Jerry's reference to "His people" and Jerusalem. I would ask Jerry WHO "His people" are? Christians and ONLY Christians - i.e. those who put their faith in Christ and follow Him - are His people. It was the first century unbelieving JEWS who "[came] against His people," the Christians! The Old Covenant people were attacking the New Covenant people precisely and singularly for their belief in/acceptance/embracing of Jesus as The Messiah, The Prophet, foretold of old in and by the prophets.

Jerusalem, as the Scriptures says, is our mother and she is a Heavenly mother - i.e. from above. Only against her and her true children do the children of the world, both past and present, persecute the people of God.

In His Grip,
--Cherith

P.S. DeeDee, stick to the topic. Don't let yourself lose site of THE topic - the GREAT Tribulation. Dispies will lead you all over the landscape and worm out because they cannot deal with ONE TOPIC at a time. ;o) Good luck, girl!

 

[Revelation717]

Jerry;

Please explain why you believe that the Lord Jesus would tell these men that they would live to see all these events take place,but at the same time He admitted that even He did not know when these things would take place.

The answer is in the same passage, your just reading into it what you want. Just read what it REALLLLLY is saying.

I will not discuss further til after the debate. I agree with Dee Dee that these type of ????s should not be asked by the CONTENDERS outside the ring.

Dee Dee;

My 5 year old daughter says "Cool PPG ("Power Puff Girl for all those without one of these little blessings~daughters~ in the house and on your lap while trying to type a post). Blossom is her FAV PPG!

 

[Revelation717]

Am I jumping the gun to post a post comment about the first post of Round 3? If so let me know.

I stopped in after work and no one has made any comments.
Don't tell me you guys have lives???? :shocked:

I think Jerry's focus will now be on how to address "literalism"

It would have to be, Dee Dee answered all the questions he hounded her about, and quite eloquently if I may say so.

I do have have some questions BUT I'll wait til I see more posts, maybe someone will address what I'm thinking, but if not MAYBE I'm just not thinking.

 

[Ian Day]

Jerry's basic policy in ALL discussions is to pose a question & ignore the answer by posing another question.

I've had long debates with him, but he can never answer straight questions. He even thinks he understands the Bible literally & non-premils "spiritualise" literal truth.

 

[rapt]

That is so true, Ian.

Sola Scriptura:

I am a preterist, postmillenial, Trinitarian, says Dee Dee. Well so is the Roman Catholic Cult! As a matter of fact,they are the ones who INVENTED Dee Dees eschatoligical views! The church will convert the world--i.e., Rome will conquer the world by any means neccessary, like the crusades, then Jesus will come after 1000 years of the golden age of church rule on the earth!

O how very nice! Augustine, the great heretic, came up with this scenario. It is not the beliefs of the early church, as even a cursory reading of Ante-Nicene materials reveals. It is a concocted theory to bolster Rome's lust for world dominance.

Dee Dees eschatology is the eschatology of ROME. And Rome is clever in arguement, but still wrong.

Benny Hinn is a false prophet, for he has prophecied many things that never came to pass when he said they would. But he also says that Jesus is the Son of God, and rose from the dead. Therefore do we know that Jesus is NOT the Son of God, just because a false prophet says He is?

Of course not! This is calling truth a lie because of association, and complete nonsense! This is the sort of logic Sola Scriptura is using in the above quote. He even associates Dee Dee's understanding of scripture with Hitler in his complete post. What utterly slanderous nonsense.

Hey Sola, are you Trinitarian? Do you believe that Jesus is God, that the Father is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God? If so, then you must believe like the pope and Hitler too, huh? I suppose Rome "invented" these things too, huh?

If you don't believe Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then you don't believe Sola Scriptura to begin with, and you should change your name.

Hey, I agree that Augustine was a heretic, but just because you believe it too doesn't make everything ELSE you say true!

If we could justly lay guilt on a doctrine because of association with evil men, then Jesus was a liar since he chose Judas as one of His disciples! Just as the wicked numbered Jesus with the transgressers, so have you numbered the truth!

Your logic echos Jerry's.

 

[Jaltus]

I think Dee Dee's latest post was solid, but she did make one error. In forcing Jerry to address his hermeneutical presuppositions, she failed to in any way deliniate her own. Jerry has the easy and valid rejoinder of asking her to put up as well. Unfortunately, this would cause this debate to further degenerate into something less than profitable for both sides, given the limited number of posts they both have.

Perhaps, if we, the Peanut Gallery, want this portion included we should ask for an extension of the debate?

 

[Revelation717]

One comment about Jerry's post.


Jerry: "Who in their right mind would believe that “everlasting righteousness”(Dan.9:24) has been brought unto Jerusalem?"

Answer: Everyone who knows Jesus is Everlasting Righteousness. :thumb:

He brought everlasting righteousness they just didn't accept it.


P.S. How can I get e-mail notification of replies? The idiot box is checked and I subscribed to this forum but I'm not getting any mail. HELP!

 

[rapt]

I think there's a problem, Rev 7:17. This forum has logged me off twice now, and I've had re-enter my email address. I never had to do that before.

 

[rapt]

Who in their right mind? I'm one that's in my right mind, and I believe Everlasting Righteousness was brought in by the same Messiah that brought in reconcilliation for iniquity and made an end of sins, and caused the sacrifices to cease, and confirmed the New Covenant!

Who DOESN'T BELIEVE in Jesus Christ? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God of none effect?

Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Rom 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 6:18; Numbers 23:19

 

[Sola Scriptora]

Well Jack, if you read that Bible you claim to know, you will notice that dominion will not come without THE KING APPEARING IN PERSON. You guys want the millenial reign WITHOUT JESUS BEING HERE. That is how Rome hopes it will be, lest He spoil there plans.

Yes Rome IS preterist postmill.

The early church WAS NOT.

The idea that all the prophecies in matt 24 and many other places refer to 70AD is just plain nuts.

Israel became a nation JUST LIKE THE DISPENSATIONALISTS IN THE 1800S said becausethey were understanding prphecy CORRECTLY.

Preterism has a million different explanations for any prophetic verse because they make it up as they go along. One thing is certain, no prophecy is FOR CERTAIN in this scheme.

It is funny how John saw the temple and outer court of Jersuslaem in 96 AD. DeeDee doesn't believe any scripture has a rebuilt temple in view. Well, John saw it.

At one time, while God was focusing other truths to be restored into the body, ecghatolgical views weren't as important. Reformation and revival truths were.

But we we entered the end times, God restored Disp truth back to the general church abroad, like he did the previous truths.

Now, to reject these well established truths is apostasy. the Spirit has restored these truths, AND THE MAJORITY OF SOUL-WINNING BIBLE BELIEVING CHURCHES THE LAST 100 YEARS have been Dispensational.

This willnot change. Preterism is to be found in dead protestant churches that aren't doing much anymore. It fits these churches. meanwhile the on fiore churches will continue to preach the truth.

There most certainly will be a future Tribulation, God's attention is on the nation of Israel, a one-world gov't, religion, mark of the beast, Antichrist and false prophet, the two witnesses, 144,000 Jews sealed by God, Armageddon and the return of the Lord to set up His Kingdom on earth based out of Jerusalem.

These things WILL HAPPEN. And the attempt to seduce Christians AWAY from these views, as these events approach is dangereous. The Antichrist is coming. no Roman Catholic eschatological heresies can change that. Be ready saints. Don't listen to the scoffers, both peter and Jude warned us these types would show up and say "where is the promise of his coming?" Don't listen.

This age will end in devil worship, as God plainly says. But a great multitude believes and nothing precludes revival from pouring out from heaven before this. it is already happening around the world. Pray God visits this nation again.

 

[Valmoon]

The agreement not to post here is a good idea I think. If the combatants choose to deal with any ?'s from the audience they can do so after the debate or they can devote a few sentences to explain themselves better.

 

[Explosived]

Originally posted by Sola Scriptora
Well Jack, if you read that Bible you claim to know, you will notice that dominion will not come without THE KING APPEARING IN PERSON. You guys want the millenial reign WITHOUT JESUS BEING HERE. That is how Rome hopes it will be, lest He spoil there plans.

Yes Rome IS preterist postmill.

The early church WAS NOT.

The idea that all the prophecies in matt 24 and many other places refer to 70AD is just plain nuts.

Israel became a nation JUST LIKE THE DISPENSATIONALISTS IN THE 1800S said becausethey were understanding prphecy CORRECTLY.

Preterism has a million different explanations for any prophetic verse because they make it up as they go along. One thing is certain, no prophecy is FOR CERTAIN in this scheme.

It is funny how John saw the temple and outer court of Jersuslaem in 96 AD. DeeDee doesn't believe any scripture has a rebuilt temple in view. Well, John saw it.

At one time, while God was focusing other truths to be restored into the body, ecghatolgical views weren't as important. Reformation and revival truths were.

But we we entered the end times, God restored Disp truth back to the general church abroad, like he did the previous truths.

Now, to reject these well established truths is apostasy. the Spirit has restored these truths, AND THE MAJORITY OF SOUL-WINNING BIBLE BELIEVING CHURCHES THE LAST 100 YEARS have been Dispensational.

This willnot change. Preterism is to be found in dead protestant churches that aren't doing much anymore. It fits these churches. meanwhile the on fiore churches will continue to preach the truth.

There most certainly will be a future Tribulation, God's attention is on the nation of Israel, a one-world gov't, religion, mark of the beast, Antichrist and false prophet, the two witnesses, 144,000 Jews sealed by God, Armageddon and the return of the Lord to set up His Kingdom on earth based out of Jerusalem.

These things WILL HAPPEN. And the attempt to seduce Christians AWAY from these views, as these events approach is dangereous. The Antichrist is coming. no Roman Catholic eschatological heresies can change that. Be ready saints. Don't listen to the scoffers, both peter and Jude warned us these types would show up and say "where is the promise of his coming?" Don't listen.

This age will end in devil worship, as God plainly says. But a great multitude believes and nothing precludes revival from pouring out from heaven before this. it is already happening around the world. Pray God visits this nation again.

Hay, thanks that helped!, exP

 

[rapt]

Urp

 

[rapt]

But we we entered the end times, God restored Disp truth back to the general church abroad, like he did the previous truths.

Now, to reject these well established truths is apostasy. the Spirit has restored these truths, AND THE MAJORITY OF SOUL-WINNING BIBLE BELIEVING CHURCHES THE LAST 100 YEARS have been Dispensational.

(The above [as does the rest of that post] sounds like a carbon copy of Jerry Shugart to me.)

Yes, scripture DOES say that there would be a turn made in the latter days:

Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron


2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Sola Scriptora]

The context of 1Tim4, if you READ the context, is prophecying the rise of Roman catholicism. The "doctrines of devils" are spelled out--forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats.

Well in chapter three we were told that church leadership is to be MARRIED, and not sacerdotal but didactic. And the Spirit showed Paul about a coming bachlerate leadership aposatsy, based on hypocrisy, and abstaining from meat, like "lent" anmd other things.

So all you pretersists need to stop MISAPPLYING these verses to Dispensationalism.

Amazing how you missed a FULFILLED PROPHECY, while pretending that unfulfilled ones are fulfilled. you are backwards as usual.

Rapr. i will not forsake my own mercy. beliving Disp has no inherent risks. We are watchful, motivated to evangelize, and desireing Christ's return--the blessed hope.

Preterists, as a whole??? Dead. Ichabod. Many of the denominations that espouse that view are also completely apostate.

Dispensationalism WILL NOT FIT with apsotate Protestant churches. But Pretersim does.

That should tell you something. Disp. ONLY ATTRACTS serious believers who want to know mor and prepare for the end times.

Apostates can listen to preterism and stay asleep. That should cause you pause. you will find no cold, apostate people within Dispensationalism. All are on fire and longing for JESUS CHRIST TO COME. At least give credit where it is due.

I have watched churches GET AWAY from Disp. and accept postmill nonsense, and it killed those churches. They became seeker-sensitive, wordly, laodicean, unsalty, useless misrepresentatives of jesus. i have seen this.

 

[rapt]

You're WAY off topic, Sola Scripture. Go start a string to discuss your doctrine that you claim has "no inheritant risks" .