Bob and Will made their round 2 post at 8PM MST tonight.
I would have given them until 9:58 AM tomorrow morning if they had needed it since that's when Will Kinney edited his original post.
Battle Royale XIV discussion thread
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
I would have given them until 9:58 AM tomorrow morning if they had needed it since that's when Will Kinney edited his original post.
genuineoriginal
New member
(Previous)
First Post in Round 2
Unofficial analysis of brandplucked's response to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy's opening questions.
BWQ1: Is God able to produce a robust message that could remain effective even as reproduced by mere men (i.e., without the need for divine intervention)?
- the answer was yes
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ2: “Of any actual error that appeared in the 1611 KJB (like ones corrected in later versions), if that error was made not by the printers but by the translators themselves, would that falsify the KJO position?”
- the answer, surprisingly enough, was: there is no complete infallible copy of the hand-written 1611 KJV Bible that was sent to the printer in existence anywhere in the world so Bob Enyart & Will Duffy can't prove that they were not printing errors, but somehow brandplucked believes he knows the missing document well enough to be able to identify every difference between the handwritten document he has never seen and the copy of the original printing of the 1611 KJV that he has in his possession. That counts as a failure to answer.
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ3: Does God’s perfect Word exist anywhere on Earth today?
- dumb question, so it does not matter that it was not answered.
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ4: “Will Kinney, please provide a list of King James Bibles, listing publisher and year published, for which you and, to the best of your knowledge, the KJO camp generally, claim them to be free of error (i.e., God’s perfect Word). Please also specifically indicate, by presenting the year published, which edition was the very first that was free of error.”
- answer: Cambridge edition
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ5: “Did God’s perfect Word exist in English in 1610, and if so, in which version?”
- answer: no
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ6: “Will Kinney, please explain how God revealed to mankind that the KJ is the only inspired version of the Bible, and please indicate when, i.e., what year, this was first known?”
- answer: divine revelation with documented history
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ7: “Will Kinney, because neither the Bible nor the Gospel is only for English-speaking persons, from the insights gained by the KJO movement, please explain how Chinese Christians, or those who speak Spanish or Hindi, for example, could evaluate whether God’s Word was available for them and their children in their own language?”
- answer: see BWQ1, BWQ3, BWQ5, BWQ6
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ8: “Will Kinney, from your past statements, we believe that you will agree with us, and here help to dispel the myth believed by many KJO adherents, that there was only a single 1611 King James. So will you affirm that in fact there were two 1611 King James Bibles, and that these two differ in hundreds of instances?”
- answer: no, there were printing errors
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ9: “It is your camp, and not the Scriptures, that claims that in the production of the King James Bible, God inspired the translators, but not the printers. (Thus you blame the errors on the printers.) So Will Kinney, can you explain why that is a reasonable claim for you all to attribute to God, considering that the printers’ work would be read by millions, whereas the translators’ work was only read by the printers?”
- answer: brandplucked does not believe that.
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ10: “In 1611, any particular minister may not have been convinced that King James was even in a position to authorize a new translation of God’s Word. Such a minister could count and find literally thousands of differences in the new text as compared to the 1537 Matthew Bible that his great-grandfather had preached from. If a minister back then had the kind of spiritual insights of today’s KJO leaders, how would he have been able to refute the one who declared: “King James’ corrupt 1611 translation has hundreds of changes as compared to the Word of God”?
- refused to answer
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ11: “If the King James translators have taken a position on a matter regarding their work that differs from your position Will Kinney and that of the KJO camp, who would have more authority as to the truth of that particular matter, you and the KJO camp, or the translators themselves?”
- answer: Bob Enyart & Will Duffy don't understand what the translators said and brandplucked does not care what the translators said.
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ12: “Will Kinney, do you agree that these actual handwritten notes from the 1611 translators themselves demonstrate that various errors previously admitted by the KJO camp were not the fault of the printers, but that these errors were generated by the translators themselves?”
- answer: no, they were printer errors
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
Final tally:
Bob Enyart & Will Duffy - 6
brandplucked - 6
(Next)
First Post in Round 2
Unofficial analysis of brandplucked's response to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy's opening questions.
BWQ1: Is God able to produce a robust message that could remain effective even as reproduced by mere men (i.e., without the need for divine intervention)?
- the answer was yes
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ2: “Of any actual error that appeared in the 1611 KJB (like ones corrected in later versions), if that error was made not by the printers but by the translators themselves, would that falsify the KJO position?”
- the answer, surprisingly enough, was: there is no complete infallible copy of the hand-written 1611 KJV Bible that was sent to the printer in existence anywhere in the world so Bob Enyart & Will Duffy can't prove that they were not printing errors, but somehow brandplucked believes he knows the missing document well enough to be able to identify every difference between the handwritten document he has never seen and the copy of the original printing of the 1611 KJV that he has in his possession. That counts as a failure to answer.
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ3: Does God’s perfect Word exist anywhere on Earth today?
- dumb question, so it does not matter that it was not answered.
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ4: “Will Kinney, please provide a list of King James Bibles, listing publisher and year published, for which you and, to the best of your knowledge, the KJO camp generally, claim them to be free of error (i.e., God’s perfect Word). Please also specifically indicate, by presenting the year published, which edition was the very first that was free of error.”
- answer: Cambridge edition
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ5: “Did God’s perfect Word exist in English in 1610, and if so, in which version?”
- answer: no
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ6: “Will Kinney, please explain how God revealed to mankind that the KJ is the only inspired version of the Bible, and please indicate when, i.e., what year, this was first known?”
- answer: divine revelation with documented history
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ7: “Will Kinney, because neither the Bible nor the Gospel is only for English-speaking persons, from the insights gained by the KJO movement, please explain how Chinese Christians, or those who speak Spanish or Hindi, for example, could evaluate whether God’s Word was available for them and their children in their own language?”
- answer: see BWQ1, BWQ3, BWQ5, BWQ6
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ8: “Will Kinney, from your past statements, we believe that you will agree with us, and here help to dispel the myth believed by many KJO adherents, that there was only a single 1611 King James. So will you affirm that in fact there were two 1611 King James Bibles, and that these two differ in hundreds of instances?”
- answer: no, there were printing errors
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ9: “It is your camp, and not the Scriptures, that claims that in the production of the King James Bible, God inspired the translators, but not the printers. (Thus you blame the errors on the printers.) So Will Kinney, can you explain why that is a reasonable claim for you all to attribute to God, considering that the printers’ work would be read by millions, whereas the translators’ work was only read by the printers?”
- answer: brandplucked does not believe that.
Points go to brandplucked.
BWQ10: “In 1611, any particular minister may not have been convinced that King James was even in a position to authorize a new translation of God’s Word. Such a minister could count and find literally thousands of differences in the new text as compared to the 1537 Matthew Bible that his great-grandfather had preached from. If a minister back then had the kind of spiritual insights of today’s KJO leaders, how would he have been able to refute the one who declared: “King James’ corrupt 1611 translation has hundreds of changes as compared to the Word of God”?
- refused to answer
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ11: “If the King James translators have taken a position on a matter regarding their work that differs from your position Will Kinney and that of the KJO camp, who would have more authority as to the truth of that particular matter, you and the KJO camp, or the translators themselves?”
- answer: Bob Enyart & Will Duffy don't understand what the translators said and brandplucked does not care what the translators said.
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
BWQ12: “Will Kinney, do you agree that these actual handwritten notes from the 1611 translators themselves demonstrate that various errors previously admitted by the KJO camp were not the fault of the printers, but that these errors were generated by the translators themselves?”
- answer: no, they were printer errors
Points go to Bob Enyart & Will Duffy.
Final tally:
Bob Enyart & Will Duffy - 6
brandplucked - 6
(Next)
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I wondered about that and thought they should start the clock from the edit. How many rounds are there ?
This is not a logical conclusion by you. Since God promised to preserve His word there would by many complete and inerrant bibles through out history. Which again leads us back to the question you seem intent on not answerining, why did God quit preserving His word in 1611?
And the question then becomes "WHICH NIV are you referring to? The one done in 1973, the one done in 1977, the one done in 1984 which they don't even print anymore, or the "new" NIV 2011?
You must answer the same question. The 1611? The 1796? The adulterers version? Which KJV is your standard and why is it the standand above all other versions of the KJV?
I am extremely impressed, the most recent response from Bob E and Will Duffy is excellent. Well done!
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
When used by Jews prior to the resurrection of Jesus, "pascha" means Passover. When used by a Greek speaking Christians, after the resurrection of Jesus, it means Easter. If the word was used by Herod, it would mean passover. But it was actually used by Luke, a Greek, writing to Christians and explaining historical details. It was not that Herod knew what Easter was but, rather, that Luke knew what it was.
Note that the passover of the death angel happened during the night. Note that Jesus' resurrection happened at dawn when the morning star is visible in the east. Easter is the Christian's passover dedicated to the resurrection of which the day star is a heavenly reminder.
Why would John use the phrase "the Jews' passover" in Jn 11:55KJV? It was because Christians began celebrating a Christian pascha at the same time of the year as the Jewish pascha immediately after Jesus' resurrection.
Eusebius reports that, from the times of the apostles, a "Savior's pascha" was held in the Christian churches.
I always wondered why a Greek was included as one of the apostles.
Rev 22:16KJV, 2Pe 1:19KJV
Five rounds, we're 40% done, and already I need a vacation (or a medically-induced coma; either will do).
Thanks Patrick!
1Way1Truth1Life
New member
KO in round 2. Game over. Thank you for playing.
Jesus was still alive in John 11:55.
No one was celebrating Easter at the time of John 11:55 since Jesus was still alive.
The only Passover that existed as of John 11:55 was a Jewish Passover. There was no other kind at the time.
Even if that's true, that's not the context of Acts 12.
James was killed, and Peter was put in prison. Herod did this to please the Christ rejecting Jews, not the early Christian Jews.
What Peter said in verse 11 proves it was all about the Christ rejecting Jews and Passover:
(Acts 12:11) Then Peter came to himself and said, “Now I know without a doubt that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from Herod’s clutches and from everything the Jewish people were hoping would happen.”
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agree
agree
Disagree, in a debate like that, all questions should be answered. So it does matter and if actually scored, points should go to the asker since it wasnt answered.
Disagree, since there are several Cambrige versions that vary from each other and no year was cited. Insufficient answer.
Agree but only because there is no infallible translation.
Disagree, no evidence given to support answer as well as insufficient answer since no year was given in response.
agree
Disagree, as there are 2 different 1611 versions
Disagree, he has stated himself at times they were inspired but at others not. Both positions taken.
Agree
agree
Agree
Disagree, i think this so far has been pretty much a hands down slaughter and that many of the posts and responses from Will Kinney appear unprepared and non responsive.
I agree.
Half the stuff Brandplucked has on his own website refutes KJVOism.
Earlier today in this thread, he used a quote from his own website by a man who wrote a book about correcting the KJV's inaccuracies.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Oh...it's about winning and losing?
I thought it was about celebrating how the publishing houses have beguiled Christians into hating other Christians and earn notoriety and royalties during the process.
I agree.
But then again, I knew this debate would be like this because KJVO doesn't have a leg to stand on, never has, and never will.
I still don't understand what motivates someone to take a KJVO stance.
genuineoriginal
New member
Both the Latin Vulgate and the Koine Greek texts have pascha in that verse, showing that Luke used the exact same word in that verse that is used throughout the New Testament for Passover.
The first recorded use of the word Easter comes from the Anglo-Saxons in the 1500s.
Because it feels better to read the KJV !!!
genuineoriginal
New member
I remembered a bit late that I did not put in the disclaimer:
Your results may vary.
:chuckle:
How so?
When's the last time you "fetched a compass"?
(Acts 28:13 KJV) And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli: