Baptiized in the Name or the Titles, Does it Matter?

TweetyBird

New member
Lol...what a husband master?

It is still Ba'al in the Hebrew.

H1166
בּעל
bâ‛al
baw-al'
A primitive root; to be master; hence (as denominative from H1167) to marry: - Beulah have dominion (over), be husband, marry (-ried, X wife).

Note the reference to Beulah - which I quoted before - a reference to Christ.

Isa 54:5 For3588 thy Maker6213 is thine husband;1166 the LORD3068 of hosts6635 is his name;8034 and thy Redeemer1350 the Holy One6918 of Israel;3478 The God430 of the whole3605 earth776 shall he be called.7121



With so many titles and names being used no wonder He had to clarify it...

God Himself used various names and titles throughout the OT.

El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

Idolatry was Israel's downfall...the irony includes worshipping even the right God with the wrong worship...title...name

Nope. They worshiped other gods by their pagan names. They were not worshiping YHWH.

Obviously jots and tittles matter...not to be carried anywhere for naught

Jots and tittles refers to matters of the Law of Moses, not about God's Name.

To think some instruct to not use His Name as a form of respect...lol

Write it as G-d...LOL

The Jews do that because they do not know the pronunciation of the YHWH. That is why they call Him > Ha Shem, Adonai, The Almighty. The hyphen in a sign of respect. God is not His Name - it's a title.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Then your position that the Jews messed with the text has no merit.
They added diacritical marks. They took what was ambiguous and open to interpretation and made it unambiguous, closing it to interpretation. This should not have been done, as in many cases it does harm to intended meanings in the text.

Look, I'm not getting anywhere with you, so I'll make this my last post on the subject, and you can have the last word.

If you are referring to NT "quoting the LXX", you are completely incorrect. There was no completed LXX in the first century. It was a much later creation with a spurious history.
False.

The translation was a process than started in the 3rd century BC, but wasn't completed until the first century.

When someone desperately needs to hold on to something they believe, which has no historical basis, they will use everything they can to prove it right.
Indeed, it seems you feel free to make up whatever "facts" you want and inject them into the conversation.

Give an example.
In Psalms 22:16 the words have been pointed in such a way as to change the meaning from "pierced by hands and feet" (with its definite Christian overtones) to "like a lion, they are at my hands and feet."

Please clarify what you mean. You are aware that the man who is responsible for compilation of 1000AD ben Chaiyym Masoretic mss was a Christian?
Masoretic doesn't just refer to the Jewish group of the 7th-10th centuries AD that took that name. The word masoreh means tradition or traditional, and refers the entire orthodox Jewish (aka Pharisee) interpretation of the Scriptures. Which is why the group that came later took the name.

If you suddenly decide you actually want to study these things, you should start in the 1st century AD, with Rabbi Akiba. The traditional interpretation of the Scriptures starts there, and it starts as a concerted effort by the leading Pharisees of the day to anathematize Christian interpretations of the Jewish scriptures.


What does that have to do with the Hebrew mss? There was no Judaism connected with Christianity. They are two separate religions.
In the first century, Christianity was a sect of Judaism, and not a separate thing.

They are now separate, because the Jews decided to cut themselves off from the True Vine.
 

clefty

New member
They added diacritical marks. They took what was ambiguous and open to interpretation and made it unambiguous, closing it to interpretation. This should not have been done, as in many cases it does harm to intended meanings in the text.

Look, I'm not getting anywhere with you, so I'll make this my last post on the subject, and you can have the last word.

False.

The translation was a process than started in the 3rd century BC, but wasn't completed until the first century.


Indeed, it seems you feel free to make up whatever "facts" you want and inject them into the conversation.


In Psalms 22:16 the words have been pointed in such a way as to change the meaning from "pierced by hands and feet" (with its definite Christian overtones) to "like a lion, they are at my hands and feet."

Masoretic doesn't just refer to the Jewish group of the 7th-10th centuries AD that took that name. The word masoreh means tradition or traditional, and refers the entire orthodox Jewish (aka Pharisee) interpretation of the Scriptures. Which is why the group that came later took the name.

If you suddenly decide you actually want to study these things, you should start in the 1st century AD, with Rabbi Akiba. The traditional interpretation of the Scriptures starts there, and it starts as a concerted effort by the leading Pharisees of the day to anathematize Christian interpretations of the Jewish scriptures.



In the first century, Christianity was a sect of Judaism, and not a separate thing.

They are now separate, because the Jews decided to cut themselves off from the True Vine.

Yes indeed...Judiasm became a sect of Israel and what was in Torah...He came to restore it back and from its "developments"

He did NOT come to start a new church or new traditions with new laws....as if becoming incarnate and visible suddenly allows us to make idols

Or change more than the jots and tittles...

He came to reestablish what was the root and trunk of that church in the wilderness...and to which Christians are merely grafted into...

No where is that more obvious than in His battles with Pharisees to take Sabbath back...

Beginning any study of the bible in the 1 century misses most of it...
 

clefty

New member
It is still Ba'al in the Hebrew.

H1166
בּעל
bâ‛al
baw-al'
A primitive root; to be master; hence (as denominative from H1167) to marry: - Beulah have dominion (over), be husband, marry (-ried, X wife).

Note the reference to Beulah - which I quoted before - a reference to Christ.

Isa 54:5 For3588 thy Maker6213 is thine husband;1166 the LORD3068 of hosts6635 is his name;8034 and thy Redeemer1350 the Holy One6918 of Israel;3478 The God430 of the whole3605 earth776 shall he be called.7121

A reference sure...but Baal is not a name...certainly not the name of the One titled Christ...

See cuz LORD of hosts is His name...and LORD capitalized like that means it's replacing the proper name...for to "respect" it...





God Himself used various names and titles throughout the OT.

El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

And? His Son said He was a door...His flesh is real food...



Nope. They worshiped other gods by their pagan names. They were not worshiping YHWH.
sure they were...with false worship...

From the golden calf of the of the impatient hebrews to the high places to Him when Jews were taxing too much for temple access...and beyond...

The whole NT was about Pharisees worshipping the right God the wrong way...duh

But yes throughout scripture Jews worshipped other gods too...



Jots and tittles refers to matters of the Law of Moses, not about God's Name.
LOL...right...His law made up of jots and tittles has nothing to do with His name...LOL

how is something unknown carried in vain? It's built right into His Law and of Moses...(which incidentally is also from Him, as well, Moses did not invent it...)

In ranking, the name thingy comes in third...right after no image making lest images become idols...

I would think you would understand the importance of Yah making a name for Himself...especially with all the idols and other counterfeits..

Please recall this in Ezekiel 36:

18So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

22“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes."


The Jews do that because they do not know the pronunciation of the YHWH. That is why they call Him > Ha Shem, Adonai, The Almighty. The hyphen in a sign of respect. God is not His Name - it's a title.

Is that what they tell you?...LOL...

Guess who plays along...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/october/9.15.html
 
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TweetyBird

New member
They added diacritical marks. They took what was ambiguous and open to interpretation and made it unambiguous, closing it to interpretation. This should not have been done, as in many cases it does harm to intended meanings in the text.

Prove that it changed the meaning and provide sources that show it from a Hebrew mass before 1000AD.

Look, I'm not getting anywhere with you, so I'll make this my last post on the subject, and you can have the last word.

You have been misled. There is no proof for your allegations.

So far you have proved nothing, which I assume it why you want to run away from the discussion.

False.

The translation was a process than started in the 3rd century BC, but wasn't completed until the first century.

There was no completed OT Greek text in the first century. Josephus said it did not exist. There is zero proof that one existed. The first five books were translated by the 72 Jewish scribes, the rest was up for grabs and oh boy did people have a field day with the rest of it for the next several hundred years.

You don't even see how contradictory your statements have been on all of this.


Indeed, it seems you feel free to make up whatever "facts" you want and inject them into the conversation.


In Psalms 22:16 the words have been pointed in such a way as to change the meaning from "pierced by hands and feet" (with its definite Christian overtones) to "like a lion, they are at my hands and feet."

That is a well worn out straw man. It means the same thing. "like a lion" is allegorical. No one believes that a lion attacked Jesus on the cross :hammer:

Masoretic doesn't just refer to the Jewish group of the 7th-10th centuries AD that took that name. The word masoreh means tradition or traditional, and refers the entire orthodox Jewish (aka Pharisee) interpretation of the Scriptures. Which is why the group that came later took the name.

We are not talking a Rabbinical interpretation of the text. That why there is a Mishna/Talmud.

If you suddenly decide you actually want to study these things, you should start in the 1st century AD, with Rabbi Akiba. The traditional interpretation of the Scriptures starts there, and it starts as a concerted effort by the leading Pharisees of the day to anathematize Christian interpretations of the Jewish scriptures.

What does a first century Rabbi have to do with Hebrew manuscripts? Apparently, Jesus had no problem reading the OT Hebrew Scroll, and never pointed out the so called inaccuracies the text that He quoted so often. In fact, neither did any writer of the NT. It's all just made up mishmash to make the Scriptures a laughing stock. I will resist that for as long as I live.

In the first century, Christianity was a sect of Judaism, and not a separate thing.

No, Christianity was not a sect of Judaism, ever. Judaism is a middle ages term referring to Talmudic Judaism.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
I said I wouldn't respond, but you've successfully irritated me into doing so...

Prove that it changed the meaning and provide sources that show it from a Hebrew mass before 1000AD.
Here's a link to the actual Isaiah scroll: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/. Visit that page and look at the scroll. Know what you won't find there? Diacritical marks.

As for proving that it changed the meaning, you will need to be able to read Hebrew for me to do that. I don't think you can do that, because if you could, you would already understand how the addition of diacritical marks limits the potential range of meanings.

Let's try a thought experiment, though, to see if we can get through to you.

Imagine you had a book that was written without any vowels or punctuation. Reading that book would require a lot of interpretation on the part of the reader. Is that word "foot" or "feet?" Is that word "rat" or "rate?" "Trip" or "Trap" or "Tripe?" There is ambiguity. Much of it can be figured out by context, but of course the other words have the same issue, so you can have whole phrases that can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

This turns out to be exactly the case for writings in ancient Semitic languages. There is little to no punctuation. The vowels are all left up to the reader's interpretation.

We can view this two ways. On the one hand, we could say that this is a limitation of the language, which makes it imprecise. On the other hand, we could say that this is a feature of the language, which allows clever authors/readers to play at words and convey more than one meaning in a single phrase, creating multiple layers of meaning using a single text.

If we take the former view, then it seems practical that we would go back through and add in all the punctuation and vowels for the modern reader, so as to make it easier to understand. This is precisely what was done when diacritical marks were added to the Biblical text.

But consider the latter view. If we believe that the Author/authors of the Bible were clever, and often intended multiple meanings for a word or phrase, how would we view the action of adding all the vowels and punctuation to the text? We would say that they have stripped away all the layers of the text but one, removed all the subtleties and, in short, reduced the text from a written masterpiece to a pedantic bit of history.

That is precisely my view of the Masoretic diacritical marks. They are additions to the text, which in truth, take away from it.

And, lest you say that I have provided no examples, I will here link you to an entire book of examples. Happy reading: https://archive.org/details/paronomasiainold00casarich

There was no completed OT Greek text in the first century. Josephus said it did not exist.
Please provide a citation for this claim.

There is zero proof that one existed. The first five books were translated by the 72 Jewish scribes, the rest was up for grabs and oh boy did people have a field day with the rest of it for the next several hundred years.
No proof... other than the New Testament quoting from it constantly... mmmmmhmmmmm...

What does a first century Rabbi have to do with Hebrew manuscripts? Apparently, Jesus had no problem reading the OT Hebrew Scroll, and never pointed out the so called inaccuracies the text that He quoted so often. In fact, neither did any writer of the NT. It's all just made up mishmash to make the Scriptures a laughing stock. I will resist that for as long as I live.
The Bible never says the scroll Jesus read from was written in Hebrew. The story is in Luke 4, if you can show me where it says it was in Hebrew, by all means please do.

However, it apperas to me that Jesus was reading in Greek. The passage He quotes in Luke 4 is Isaiah 61, and it turns out that there is a difference between the LXX and Masoretic text in verse 1. Jesus follows the reading in the LXX.

No, Christianity was not a sect of Judaism, ever. Judaism is a middle ages term referring to Talmudic Judaism.
I guess Acts is wrong when it calls it a sect, then? Chapters 24 and 28. Oops.
 

clefty

New member
I guess Acts is wrong when it calls it a sect, then? Chapters 24 and 28. Oops.

Until Constantine...for the most part, the early church was indeed persecuted by Rome as a superstitious Jewish sect...
 

TweetyBird

New member
Yes indeed...Judiasm became a sect of Israel and what was in Torah...He came to restore it back and from its "developments"

There was no Judaism until the Talmud - it is the Talmudic religion of the Jewish people established well after the first century - from about 500AD onwards when it evolved into a formal religion.

He did NOT come to start a new church or new traditions with new laws....as if becoming incarnate and visible suddenly allows us to make idols

Jesus came to die for sin and introduce a new way to live, not based on the Mosaic Law, but new commandments - His words, not mine.

Or change more than the jots and tittles...

But He did change them and rendered what was given through Moses as useless.

He came to reestablish what was the root and trunk of that church in the wilderness...and to which Christians are merely grafted into...

Jesus always was and is and always will be the Root. Israel was grafted into Him, and then cut off for unbelief. Those who belief in Jesus Christ are grafted back in, as well as the Gentiles being grafted into Christ.

No where is that more obvious than in His battles with Pharisees to take Sabbath back...

Beginning any study of the bible in the 1 century misses most of it...

The Sabbath was not stolen by the Pharisees. What Jesus was accused of pertaining the Sabbath was true. He worked on the Sabbath, and allowed His disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath. That is against the Law of Moses. Jesus did not come to reestablish the Sabbath. He is the Sabbath now, our rest is in Him, not in a day of the week ...
 

TweetyBird

New member
I said I wouldn't respond, but you've successfully irritated me into doing so...


Here's a link to the actual Isaiah scroll: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/. Visit that page and look at the scroll. Know what you won't find there? Diacritical marks.

Ok, so what is your point? You seem to think that what we have today is an error filled translation and God's word vanished into thin air, leaving us with a fictional writing.

As for proving that it changed the meaning, you will need to be able to read Hebrew for me to do that. I don't think you can do that, because if you could, you would already understand how the addition of diacritical marks limits the potential range of meanings.

Then how come the translators accurately translated when compared to the DSS Isaiah scroll when they translated from the ben Chayyim?

Let's try a thought experiment, though, to see if we can get through to you.

Imagine you had a book that was written without any vowels or punctuation. Reading that book would require a lot of interpretation on the part of the reader. Is that word "foot" or "feet?" Is that word "rat" or "rate?" "Trip" or "Trap" or "Tripe?" There is ambiguity. Much of it can be figured out by context, but of course the other words have the same issue, so you can have whole phrases that can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

Hebrew is translated contextually. Even if there were no vowels, your brain would fill in the words.

Here is a sample:

Spps y wrt n ntrstng stry. Spps t ws th bst stry y hd vr wrttn. Nw tk tht splndd stry nd rs ll th vwls. rs thm ll ntl th stry mks n sns bcs, wll, wht s wrd wtht vwl? spps thr r sm wrds wth n vwl. Th wrd “my” fr nstnc hs n vwl, bt sn’t thr syng, “nd smtms y?” stry wtht vwls wld b cnfsng, prplxng, cmpltly bfflng. Wld y b bl t rd t? Wld y b bl t cmprhnd wht th stry ws syng?

Nw thnk f wrld wth n vwls. t lst th wrld f lttrs tht r sd n th vrs lnggs sch s nglsh, tln, nd Grmn. Wht wld ths crzy wrld b lk wtht ths nn-cnsnnts? Prhps “y” cld rplc ll f thm, cnsdrng ts rl f wntng t b bth th tcst nd t b n th “n-crwd.” D y blv sch fctnl plc cld xst? Wll, thr r thr lnggs tht spll dffrntly… thy dn’t ncssrly hv vwls – lk, fr xmpl, th pplr mng nm nd mng fns, th Jpns lngg. Hwvr, thy srt f hv vwls. Whn thr lngg s trnd nt rmj, thy hv wht r vwls t s. Th wrds lk “kw,” “sg,” nd “ngr” wldn’t xst wtht vwls – fr sm, m, vrsd “wb” xmpls.

Rdng bk wtht vwls wld b xtrmly dffclt, dn’t y gr? spclly fr crtn wrds lk “st” nd “st.” Y wldn’t knw wht th dffrnc ws f thr ws n vwl thr. Dn’t y gr? Y wld nly s th s nd th t, bt n vwl wld b prsnt. Y wldn’t b bl t cll tht wrd, nw wld y? wrld wth n vwls? wrld wth nly cnsnnts? Hw bsrd.

Ths s th prblm wth chtspk. Sr, t s sy, t rmv th vwls frm wrds sch s “r” nd “why” t mk t qckr t snd s th prsn n th thr sd cn rcv yr mssg snr. f crs, f th prsn dsn’t xctly dslk chtspk, thn sppsdly tht s ll rght. Chtspk, txtng, Mng, chttng – whtvr y cll t – s n nfrml wy f wrtng. Y my wrt hwvr y wsh t smn tht knws y. t s whn smn ds nt ndrstnd th dffrnc btwn frml nd nfrml wrtng s whn ths “spch” bcms trn wrck.

Sm tchrs dn’t sm t mnd ppr hndd t thm tht hs chtspk blndng th ppr. f y wr t rcv ppr cmpltly flld wth wrds tht wr strctly fr nfrml tlk – t smn wh dsn’t cr nd ctlly ndrstnds wht n th hll y r syng. Sm tchrs ctlly hv t g lk nln t s wht crtn wrd mns – thy tk lngr t grd ppr smn wrt whn t cld hv tkn cnsdrbly lss tm f th prsn ctlly thght f wrtng frmlly – cmpltly vd f chtspk.

Lv th chtspk fr th Ms nd txt mssgng.


This turns out to be exactly the case for writings in ancient Semitic languages. There is little to no punctuation. The vowels are all left up to the reader's interpretation.

The percentage of people that can read Hebrew without the pointings is probably quite small. Is the rest of the world out of luck?

What do you think is the percentage of error in the OT comparing the text with pointings and without when speaking of accuracy.

So far you have provided not real examples of how misled we all are because we are not reading the pointingsless Hebrew.


Please provide a citation for this claim.

Josephus stated there was no Greek OT. We only know of the first five books because that is pretty much documented historically from what we can tell.

No proof... other than the New Testament quoting from it constantly... mmmmmhmmmmm...

The NT did not quote from the LXX. The LXX quoted the NT - it is a much later work - or I should say, they are much later works - a number of them that do not agree with each other. I have heard there are 4 different recensions, smoothed to match the NT Greek.


The Bible never says the scroll Jesus read from was written in Hebrew. The story is in Luke 4, if you can show me where it says it was in Hebrew, by all means please do.

Hebrew was read in the synagogues, not Greek. Hebrew was still the language of the Jews, even though they spoke Greek and Aramaic.

However, it apperas to me that Jesus was reading in Greek. The passage He quotes in Luke 4 is Isaiah 61, and it turns out that there is a difference between the LXX and Masoretic text in verse 1. Jesus follows the reading in the LXX.

No He did not. That is just fantasy. Someone has sold you a myth.


I guess Acts is wrong when it calls it a sect, then? Chapters 24 and 28. Oops.

I could not find anything in Acts 24. I did find this one:

Act 26:5 Which knew4267 me3165 from the beginning,509 if1437 they would2309 testify,3140 that3754 after2596 the3588 most straitest196 sect139 of our2251 religion2356 I lived2198 a Pharisee.5330

G2356
θρησκεία
thrēskeia
thrace-ki'-ah
From a derivative of G2357; ceremonial observance: - religion, worshipping.

If you are referring to G2450 Ἰουδαΐ́ζω Ioudaizō - I can understand why that is confusing to you. The Jews religion is without Christ. So Christianity was not based on it, at all, in any way.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
No one knows the pronunciation of the YHWH. Not even the Jews.
Obfuscation.

Your claim earlier was that this was why the Jews wrote G-d rather than God. What on earth could the pronunciation possibly have to do with the Jewish practice of writing G-d, rather than God? Nothing.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Obfuscation.

No one knows the pronunciation of the YHWH. That is fact. There are a bunch of guesses - like over 50 of them all coming from the throes of "scholarship"

Your claim earlier was that this was why the Jews wrote G-d rather than God. What on earth could the pronunciation possibly have to do with the Jewish practice of writing G-d, rather than God? Nothing.

To show honor to Ha Shem, so as not to speak it in case is it incorrect.

The practice of writing "G-d" is supported in Shut Achiezer, 3:32, end, where it is endorsed and accepted as the prevailing custom. Rambam cites Deut. 12-03:04, which states "and you shall destroy the names of pagan gods from their places. You shall not do similarly to G-d your Lord." The intent of this is to create an atmosphere of respect for G-d's name vs pagan gods names.

As a result of this, people acquired the habit of not writing the full name down in the first place. Strictly speaking, this only applies to Hebrew on a permanent medium, but many people are careful beyond the minimum, and have applied it to non-Hebrew languages. Hence, "G-d". One explanation is that using G-d is a reminder that anything which we may say about G-d is necessarily metaphorical. Spelling out the Name (even in a language other than Hebrew) would imply that one could speak meaningfully (not just metaphorically) about G-d.

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/11-03-01.html
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Ok, so what is your point?
You asked for something; I supplied it. That's all.

You seem to think that what we have today is an error filled translation and God's word vanished into thin air, leaving us with a fictional writing.
Putting words in my mouth? Please don't.

Then how come the translators accurately translated when compared to the DSS Isaiah scroll when they translated from the ben Chayyim?
Did they, now? Staring down Isaiah 7...

The percentage of people that can read Hebrew without the pointings is probably quite small. Is the rest of the world out of luck?
It's a matter of trying to put God in a box... He doesn't tend to stay in the box very well. Close this avenue for revelation and another one will spring open somewhere else.

What do you think is the percentage of error in the OT comparing the text with pointings and without when speaking of accuracy.
The question is bad. The question assumes there is a single "correct" interpretation. That is not the case. There may be multiple interpretations possible for any given verse, when you put it into different contexts.

One may be preferred in the context of the book it is in (although sometimes, more than one even then). But that isn't the end of how the Scriptures are meant to be used.

All Scriptures are inspiration. We everyday pluck them from their natural context and insert them into the moments of our lives, taking from them meanings personal to ourselves and our own unique circumstances. This is a feature; not an error.

It turns out that the ability of the Scriptures to be used in this way - as inspiration - is maximized when ambiguity in the text is greater.

So far you have provided not real examples of how misled we all are because we are not reading the pointingsless Hebrew.
More words in my mouth. You attempt to re-frame the argument as me vs Christendom. That just isn't the case, though. I am part of the 'we' in question.

Why is this in dispute? Did the Jewish leadership from the 2nd century onwards persecute and ostracize Christians? Yes. Did they (re)interpret Scriptures largely for the purpose of excluding Christian interpretations? Yes. If you don't agree... go read more. This is well established history.

Josephus stated there was no Greek OT. We only know of the first five books because that is pretty much documented historically from what we can tell.
I asked for a citation. That would look like "Wars of the Jews, page 57." You can't just re-assert the same thing.

The NT did not quote from the LXX. The LXX quoted the NT - it is a much later work - or I should say, they are much later works - a number of them that do not agree with each other. I have heard there are 4 different recensions, smoothed to match the NT Greek.
You just finished admitting that the Pentateuch was already translated. You can't have it both ways. Besides, guess which books of the OT are most frequently quoted in the NT? Deuteronomy is the most quoted, Exodus is second on the list, and 4 of the top 6 books are in the Pentateuch (the other two are Isaiah and Job).

Hebrew was read in the synagogues, not Greek. Hebrew was still the language of the Jews, even though they spoke Greek and Aramaic.
In Judea, that's true. But Jesus was in Galilee, so you're still wrong.
 

clefty

New member
There was no Judaism until the Talmud - it is the Talmudic religion of the Jewish people established well after the first century - from about 500AD onwards when it evolved into a formal religion.
if you mean to say that what is today's is not EXACTLY what was back then, then yes...but it was still Jews practicing their religion as He did according to His custom...as even Paul said he did...and the early church...is why Christians were considered a Jewish sect by Rome and persecuted as such...



Jesus came to die for sin and introduce a new way to live, not based on the Mosaic Law, but new commandments - His words, not mine.
lol...and other translators had similar agendas perverting the truth of the gospel...

He came to restore us to His Father...and to Him means to live His way in accordance to His way...by His Father's Law

Or do you mean to say we are free to kill, fornicate, steal, covet, etc

To love as He loved includes all 10 of the laws and what is new is to love Him by His Name...they never had that before...He/God was never incarnate like that before...best get His name right...and live JUST AS He did



But He did change them and rendered what was given through Moses as useless.
what was given to Moses was always useless to save as it was merely to point out sin and the need for salvation and the way to salvation...

It was a tool for a specific function...you mean to use a hammer as a screwdriver...

Or rather "Think not that I have come to destroy" what points to your need of Me



Jesus always was and is and always will be the Root. Israel was grafted into Him, and then cut off for unbelief. Those who belief in Jesus Christ are grafted back in, as well as the Gentiles being grafted into Christ.
what He always was and is is compliant to the will of His Father, His Law...and grafted to Him means to keep His Father's Law as He said He did...and Israel was meant to do but did not so was cut off



The Sabbath was not stolen by the Pharisees. What Jesus was accused of pertaining the Sabbath was true. He worked on the Sabbath, and allowed His disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath. That is against the Law of Moses. Jesus did not come to reestablish the Sabbath. He is the Sabbath now, our rest is in Him, not in a day of the week ...

Was true? So you are saying He sinned? Wow...according to the Pharisees interpretations?

And wow also to your "He is" the last 1/7 period of time now...

again an agenda to replace what was actually written

"Come unto Me and I will give you rest" becomes "come unto Me I am the seventh day Sabbath"

Another gospel indeed all this adding to the word...

Signed and sealed at the cross the new covenant believers hurried to still keep on keeping the Sabbath...

Signed and sealed with a new signature I might add...that of the Lord of the Sabbath...
 

TweetyBird

New member
Did they, now? Staring down Isaiah 7...

You are going to need to unpack that.

It's a matter of trying to put God in a box... He doesn't tend to stay in the box very well. Close this avenue for revelation and another one will spring open somewhere else.

It was a simple question - so why run from it?


The question is bad. The question assumes there is a single "correct" interpretation. That is not the case. There may be multiple interpretations possible for any given verse, when you put it into different contexts.

The context is based on the surrounding verses. The Scriptures are not a box of legos that is designed to allow for creative building.

One may be preferred in the context of the book it is in (although sometimes, more than one even then). But that isn't the end of how the Scriptures are meant to be used.

All Scriptures are inspiration. We everyday pluck them from their natural context and insert them into the moments of our lives, taking from them meanings personal to ourselves and our own unique circumstances. This is a feature; not an error.

The purpose of all Scripture is to declare Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

It turns out that the ability of the Scriptures to be used in this way - as inspiration - is maximized when ambiguity in the text is greater.

The Scriptures were not written for people to re-translate to fit their theologies and doctrines.

More words in my mouth. You attempt to re-frame the argument as me vs Christendom. That just isn't the case, though. I am part of the 'we' in question.

I asked for proof how Christians are misled by not using your theory of translation.

Why is this in dispute? Did the Jewish leadership from the 2nd century onwards persecute and ostracize Christians? Yes. Did they (re)interpret Scriptures largely for the purpose of excluding Christian interpretations? Yes. If you don't agree... go read more. This is well established history.

Why is this important to Christians? Judaism has been re-writing the Scriptures since Jesus came so they have manufactured proof to reject Him.

I asked for a citation. That would look like "Wars of the Jews, page 57." You can't just re-assert the same thing.

Antiquities Preface

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-pref.htm

2. Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures. And indeed I did formerly intend, when I wrote of the war, (Jewish Wars 75AD) to explain who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work (Antiquities 93 AD) would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language.

Antiquities 1.3

"3. I found, therefore, that the second of the Ptolemies was a king who was extraordinarily diligent in what concerned learning, and the collection of books; that he was also peculiarly ambitious to procure a translation of our law, and of the constitution of our government therein contained, into the Greek tongue. Now Eleazar the high priest, one not inferior to any other of that dignity among us, did not envy the forenamed king the participation of that advantage, which otherwise he would for certain have denied him, but that he knew the custom of our nation was, to hinder nothing of what we esteemed ourselves from being communicated to others. Accordingly, I thought it became me both to imitate the generosity of our high priest, and to suppose there might even now be many lovers of learning like the king; for he did not obtain all our writings at that time; but those who were sent to Alexandria as interpreters, gave him only the books of the law, while there were a vast number of other matters in our sacred books. "

Antiquites 10.218

But let no one blame me for writing down every thing of this nature, as I find it in our ancient books; for as to that matter, I have plainly assured those that think me defective in any such point, or complain of my management, and have told them in the beginning of this history, that I intended to do no more than translate the Hebrew books into the Greek language, and promised them to explain those facts, without adding any thing to them of my own, or taking any thing away from there.



You just finished admitting that the Pentateuch was already translated. You can't have it both ways. Besides, guess which books of the OT are most frequently quoted in the NT? Deuteronomy is the most quoted, Exodus is second on the list, and 4 of the top 6 books are in the Pentateuch (the other two are Isaiah and Job).

Sure, "I can have it both ways". Stating that the Pentateuch was translated by the Jewish Scribes is not stating that there was a complete Greek OT in the first century.

In Judea, that's true. But Jesus was in Galilee, so you're still wrong.

Jews lived in Galilee. A synagogue is still a Jewish place of worship where the OT was read in Hebrew.
 

TweetyBird

New member
if you mean to say that what is today's is not EXACTLY what was back then, then yes...but it was still Jews practicing their religion as He did according to His custom...as even Paul said he did...and the early church...is why Christians were considered a Jewish sect by Rome and persecuted as such...

Jews may have been practicing their religion, but it was not Talmudic Judaism until much later.

Please clarify with a source that Rome persecuted Christians as a Jewish sect. There is nothing Jewish about the Gospel, not one iota.



lol...and other translators had similar agendas perverting the truth of the gospel...

He came to restore us to His Father...and to Him means to live His way in accordance to His way...by His Father's Law

Or do you mean to say we are free to kill, fornicate, steal, covet, etc

To love as He loved includes all 10 of the laws and what is new is to love Him by His Name...they never had that before...He/God was never incarnate like that before...best get His name right...and live JUST AS He did

You forgot the other 603 commandments. Good luck with keeping all of them, you are going to need it.


what was given to Moses was always useless to save as it was merely to point out sin and the need for salvation and the way to salvation...

The way to "salvation" for Israel under the Mosaic Covenant Law was to keep Torah.

Or rather "Think not that I have come to destroy" what points to your need of Me

Jesus did not destroy the Law - He fulfilled it, satisfied it, nailed to a tree, took it out of the way.


what He always was and is is compliant to the will of His Father, His Law...and grafted to Him means to keep His Father's Law as He said He did...and Israel was meant to do but did not so was cut off

Grafted in is by belief in Jesus Christ alone, not by works, but by faith through grace.


Was true? So you are saying He sinned? Wow...according to the Pharisees interpretations?

Jesus cannot sin, He was born sinless. He did not have to keep Torah to be sinless. That is messed up thinking.

"Come unto Me and I will give you rest" becomes "come unto Me I am the seventh day Sabbath"

No sabbath day - but eternal rest in Christ. He is Lord of The Sabbath - another day, not the 7th day. Sabbath means rest.

Signed and sealed at the cross the new covenant believers hurried to still keep on keeping the Sabbath...

Signed and sealed with a new signature I might add...that of the Lord of the Sabbath...

It took some revelation to come into the truth of Christ's resurrection - that is why the NT was written to explain the mystery hidden from ages past.
 

clefty

New member
Jews may have been practicing their religion,
may have been? LoL...

Notice it is not called israelitism or yahwehism...

but it was not Talmudic Judaism until much later.

You are preoccupied with Talmudic judiasm I am not...

You said "There was no Judaism until the Talmud - it is the Talmudic religion of the Jewish people established well after the first century - from about 500AD onwards when it evolved into a formal religion."

What were they practicing from the building of the second temple to 499AD? Or prior in captivity?

Were they no longer Jews because they didn't sacrifice between the temples in captivity?

Much was brought back from Babylon it is true...is what He was "stealing back" and restoring in His ministry...

And yes what passes as judiasm today is not exactly what was then...

Please clarify with a source that Rome persecuted Christians as a Jewish sect.
too many...you can google it yourself...start with the crucifixion itself lol...

There is nothing Jewish about the Gospel, not one iota.
unless you are honest
 

TweetyBird

New member
may have been? LoL...

Notice it is not called israelitism or yahwehism...

Of course if was not called yahwehism - there is no such name as "yahweh". It did not have a title or name in the OT.

It was called the "Jew's religion" in the NT - referring to unbelieving Jews under the old covenant.


You are preoccupied with Talmudic judiasm I am not...

That is because the term Judaism refers to Talmudism.

You said "There was no Judaism until the Talmud - it is the Talmudic religion of the Jewish people established well after the first century - from about 500AD onwards when it evolved into a formal religion."

What were they practicing from the building of the second temple to 499AD? Or prior in captivity?

It was called the Jew's religion. I stated that Judaism was not FORMAL religion until after the Talmud was completed. Before then, some of the "oral law" was being developed and practiced.



too many...you can google it yourself...start with the crucifixion itself lol...


Jesus was not crucified because He was a Christianized Jew. He was crucified by the Romans for two reasons.
1) Pilate feared the crowds of people who wanted Him crucified and 2) because Jesus was accused of insurrection against Rome.

unless you are honest

There is not one thing about the Gospel that is Jewish. Jesus died on a pagan cross at the hands of pagan men who developed a pagan torture system to kill people. Which God predestined, planned, and carried out according to His will. Read Isaiah 53.
 

clefty

New member
Of course if was not called yahwehism - there is no such name as "yahweh". It did not have a title or name in the OT.
what Name was He trying to make great among the nations then?

That was what Israel was known for...that church in the wilderness as Jew Stephen was stoned for reminding them who the true founder was and which the Jews killed.

It was called the "Jew's religion" in the NT - referring to unbelieving Jews under the old covenant.
as the believing Jews were still of Israel that church in the wilderness...and still maintaining their kosher sabbath keeping festival observing ways




That is because the term Judaism refers to Talmudism.
to you...

After the return to the second temple it was also known as Judaism but yes already different than what it was as part of Israel...

But even during Jeremiah's time a conspiracy was found among it...



It was called the Jew's religion. I stated that Judaism was not FORMAL religion until after the Talmud was completed. Before then, some of the "oral law" was being developed and practiced.
ummm yes that oral law was exactly what He rejected to preserve and uphold Sabbath...to restore lost Israel back to the original...






Jesus was not crucified because He was a Christianized Jew. He was crucified by the Romans for two reasons.
1) Pilate feared the crowds of people who wanted Him crucified and 2) because Jesus was accused of insurrection against Rome.

Lol...Ditto the early church...He was a danger to the status quo...as they were...this king of the Jews was a danger to Rome as every Jew was...especially this new group that so many Romans were joining...

Jews were grudgingly accepted but only when this new group was conformed into something less Jewish and more palatable to European tastes was it accepted...



There is not one thing about the Gospel that is Jewish.
lol...says you

Kosher, Sabbath keeping, festival observing, "salvation is of the Jews" saying, christening the new covenant with a toast to a room full of Jews, etc...

Lol...Even the Jews accused Paul of removing the customs traditions "of Moses " and he denied it...


But yes Rome has worked hard to remove everything "Jewish" ironically keeping unleavened bread...


Jesus died on a pagan cross at the hands of pagan men who developed a pagan torture system to kill people.
and Rome still persecutes His own...denying Him, His way...

Which God predestined, planned, and carried out according to His will. Read Isaiah 53.

For us to become more like Him...not He us...even as us He implored we become more like Him His way...

Isaiah 53 says what? To make it less about Him His way?
 
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