Ask Knight (Archived)
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Correct.
If John Doe had the ability to choose Christ (and he did) God's foreknowledge wouldn't have been perfect (assuming of course that God's foreknowledge had John Doe NOT choosing Christ).
My head hurts.
Originally posted by Knight
Correct.
If John Doe had the ability to choose Christ (and he did) God's foreknowledge wouldn't have been perfect (assuming of course that God's foreknowledge had John Doe NOT choosing Christ).
My head hurts.
Ok, maybe I missed it, but why couldn't God's foreknowledge know what John Doe chooses? John Doe makes a choice, God knows what that choice is going to be. John Doe still has free will. God still has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.
If John Doe is going to choose Christ then God knows that he will choose Christ. If John Doe is not going to choose Christ then God knows that he will not choose Christ.
Why can't God have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge and John Doe have free will?
Your question sort of answers itself doesn't it?
WARNING WARNING WARNING
Hypothetical paragraph to follow:
Let's say its a billion years ago.... and God knows PERFECTLY that John Doe will live and die without accepting Christ.
The above is a fact (within the hypothetical).
Does John Doe have the power to render that foreknowledge in error by doing other than what the foreknowledge contains?
Freewill probably didn't play a part in my desire to like chocolate. Nor did freewill play a part in the fact that I am 5'8" (and a half
) and have brown hair etc etc etc.We are indeed born with certain characteristics and not all of them are directly related to man's freewill.
Well we have been waiting for you to demonstrate that for the last 5 years. Now is as good a time as any.Originally posted by Freak
Exactly. I believe there is both because the Bible says so.
Originally posted by Knight
Your question sort of answers itself doesn't it?
WARNING WARNING WARNING
Hypothetical paragraph to follow:
Let's say its a billion years ago.... and God knows PERFECTLY that John Doe will live and die without accepting Christ.
The above is a fact (within the hypothetical).
Does John Doe have the power to render that foreknowledge in error by doing other than what the foreknowledge contains?
To answer your question as it is, no. John Doe would not have the power to render the foreknowledge in error. The problem with your question is that you are assuming that the foreknowledge can be in error.
Foreknowledge, regardless of the outcome, can not ever be in error. In fact, it can't be anything other than what it is. Knowledge of what has not yet happened.
Why are you hung up on assuming that the foreknowledge causes what happens to John Doe?
Why can't the foreknowledge just know what John Doe is going to do without forcing John Doe to do anything?
Actually I am not assuming that at all. In fact I have stated that foreknowledge must not be in error otherwise it wouldn't really be foreknowledge at all.
You continue...
I agree.
You continue....
It's weird... the desire to want John Doe's actions to be free and the desire to think that God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge creates this strange version of foreknowledge that really isn't foreknowledge at all..... its more like postknowledge.
John Doe does whatever he does and THEN God knows about it in advance.
That isn't foreknowledge THAT'S postknowledge. And it's illogical to boot!So here is where the philosophy hits that dead end. I cannot convince you that perfect foreknowledge removes true freewill even though your own description of foreknowledge being compatible with freewill abuses the very definition of foreknowledge itself.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree or we could also investigate God's word and see what He has to say on the topic.
Yikes how could I have forgot to thank you for such a direct answer. :up: Why is it that no one else seems to be able to answer directly like you did?
You are right of course.... the answer is "no". There really isn't any other LOGICAL way to answer is there?
Say what?
Is that a question for me or a statement from you? Either way.... I don't get it.
Originally posted by Knight
Actually I am not assuming that at all. In fact I have stated that foreknowledge must not be in error otherwise it wouldn't really be foreknowledge at all.
You continue...I agree.
You continue.... It's weird... the desire to want John Doe's actions to be free and the desire to think that God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge creates this strange version of foreknowledge that really isn't foreknowledge at all..... its more like postknowledge.
John Doe does whatever he does and THEN God knows about it in advance.
So here is where the philosophy hits that dead end. I cannot convince you that perfect foreknowledge removes true freewill even though your own description of foreknowledge being compatible with freewill abuses the very definition of foreknowledge itself.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree or we could also investigate God's word and see what He has to say on the topic.
Yes! :bannana:
You are almost there! The foreknowledge is exactly like postknowledge except the knowledge is known before the event happens rather than after it happens. That is what foreknowledge is by definition.
Illogical? Seriously now. From a scientific perspective was the Virgin birth and the physical bodily resurrection logical or even possible? No, but they happened anyway didn't they.
Why can't God know the outcome of John Does life before John Doe has even been born?
Jabez... that is the funniest signature image.... I can watch it over and over and over and still laugh. :chuckle:
I notice there is a lot of the "no direct answer" approach to answering questions around here. I try not to contribute to that.
Maybe people are afraid of answering directly because they fear finding out that their answer might be wrong. I'm not afraid of finding out I'm wrong about something.
You are completely right on the LOGICAL part. I believe it has been said that some things defy logic. I think the foreknowledge of God is one of those things.
I have NO problem with any of what you just said.
The problem comes in when you want to assert that John Doe still has the ability to choose freely yet God has perfect foreknowledge of those choices.
You continue...
There is NOTHING illogical about any of that.
God is SUPERNATURAL. And could do any of that.
Just because we are incapable of doing what God does that doesn't render God illogical.
You continue...
God could. I do not deny that.
But if God did it that way.... mankind wouldn't have a true freewill.
And I think there is ample biblical evidence to prove God did not choose to create us in that fashion.
Great questions! I love this topic.
I am not afraid of that either which is why I started this thread the way that I did.
You continue...
I disagree.
I do not think God is illogical in any way whatsoever.
Especially regarding foreknowldge.
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