That is sort of hard to answer don't you think?
I really haven't sat down and mapped out what I am and am not qualified to answer. I guess I will have to just take as they come.
Ask Knight (Archived)
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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I really haven't sat down and mapped out what I am and am not qualified to answer. I guess I will have to just take as they come.
brother Willi
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Knight
Will Tye and BB ever be friends?
Is it all just a show?
Will Tye and BB ever be friends?
Is it all just a show?
Who do you think I am? Miss Cleo?
Tye Porter
New member
We are actually best friends, cousins on our fathers side.
Knight gives us free subscriptions if we fake like we do.
We are loving friends!
Christine
New member
Yes, I was.
Man does not have free-will, but sometimes it appears to man that we have free-will. If someone gets saved, it is because God put the desire (or will) in their heart. See John 15:16.
Knight, I'm pleased to say that I have an answer for your question. Your hypothetical situation woud never happen in real life. Without God, man would have no desire to get saved. We didn't choose God, but instead, God chose us. See verses John 5:40, Romans 8:8, John 6:44, John 1:3 for evidence of that.
Here are the two main verses:
John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Wow this is a shame.... in the span of a few posts you fallen even deeper into Calvinistic theology. At first you were claiming man had freewill and made his own choices yet God was able to see those choices in advance. But now you have strayed much further from that type of theology and are claiming man doesn't have a freewill at all.
What happened?
You continue...
Let's look at these verses one at a time:
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
How in the world you think this verse helps your argument I will never know.
This is one of the strongest verses in the entire Bible showing that man has a will of his own and he can reject God's will.Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The verse says nothing more than what it says... if you are not saved you cannot save yourself.
Lets read the verse directly after that...
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Again.... I really don't know how that teaching helps your argument.
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christine... who does the Father draw???? Does He only draw some select lucky individuals? Or does He draw ALL men?
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
God draw all peoples to Himself! Some people respond some do not!
John 1:3 really doesn't have anything to do with the topic does it? Did you mean to type something else?
You continue...
It's been awhile since someone has used this verse in this way. I kind of forgot that this verse occasionally gets abused in this fashion. Just so you know Christine.... Jesus is speaking about choosing His disciples individually (which He did do). You don't have to take my word on this one you can look it up in ANY Bible commentary and it will say the same thing.
You continue...
I already responded to this above.
Thanks for the fun questions!
I hope my answers help you and are understandable.
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I am thinking....
NJ vs. Toronto
Christine
New member
You are correct. What I said in the beginning and what I said more recently does not go together. Why? I have been evaluating my beliefs in this area. My earlier posts were what I previously believed. Now, I am more Calvinistic, although don't know if I would consider myself a 5-point Calvinist.Originally posted by Knight
Wow this is a shame.... in the span of a few posts you fallen even deeper into Calvinistic theology. At first you were claiming man had freewill and made his own choices yet God was able to see those choices in advance. But now you have strayed much further from that type of theology and are claiming man doesn't have a freewill at all.
What happened?
I believe that this verse shows that without God, man would not desire to become a Christian.You continue...Let's look at these verses one at a time:
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
How in the world you think this verse helps your argument I will never know.
Again, if man decided on his own, man would not decide to get saved.
Hmm. I'll have to think about that question. I'm still new to this view and am still learning.
:doh: Yes, I really meant to type John 1:13. Sorry about that.
Just because a commentary supports a view doesn't make it right or wrong. Couldn't the verse apply to the Body as well as to the disciples?
You're welcome. Do you mind answering one more? Do you not believe that God is omniscient?
Forgive me if I'm being dense, but
I don't understand what you mean by "does John Doe have the freewill to thwart God's foreknowledge?"
Where I'm confused is the "thwart" part. Do you mean that John Doe does something that God doesn't know about or that John Doe can't do something without God knowing about it?
Again, please forgive me as I haven't really been following too closely with the whole open vs. closed view and a beginner when it comes to these things anyway. I'm just trying to learn.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what you are getting at with your question is that because God may know that John Doe will die without choosing Christ, that because God knows, somehow that prevents John Doe from choosing?
I pose this question to you then. If God knows that John Doe will die without choosing Christ, how does this prevent John Doe from choosing?
Oh man.....
Wouldn't that be sweet?
You continue...
Without God there would be no such thing AS a Christian.
However....
I think I get what your trying to say and actually we agree. (but for different reasons)
I would say God "draws all people to Himself" (as God Himself says) and some people respond to Him and some do not. Your theology would force you to say God only draws some to Himself and those that He draws He coerces into selecting Him.
You continue...
Again... God draws ALL people. So in a way we agree.
Think about this for a minute...
If God draws All peoples to Himself (as He directly states in John 12:32) yet we also know that not all people are saved. There are only two possible conclusions we can come up with based on those two facts... either God is incapable of effectively drawing all people to Himself and coercing them into selecting Him or God really DOES draw all people but many/most reject God (i.e., men have their OWN will). The Bible would back up the Open Theist claim that many/most simply reject God's will. The Bible WOULD NOT back up the idea that God failed in His "drawing" which is a fundamental flaw in the Calvinistic theology. I suggest you seriously consider this flaw in your theology.
You continue...
Fair enough!
You continue...
I thought so. John 1:13 simply states (in a different way) that those who accept God are "born again".
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You continue...
Feel free to do the research yourself on this topic I am not going to force you to believe me. Even staunch Calvinists will admit that John 15:16 is in regard to Jesus picking His apostles.
You continue....
Yes, I believe that God is omniscient. However I do not force a stretched definition of omniscience upon God.
I discovered that I liked chocolate.
If God's foreknowledge is exhaustive and perfect it cannot by definition change.
If God's foreknowledge cannot change....
John Doe is destined to die without choosing Christ.
Based on perfect exhaustive foreknowledge can anyone deny the above statement?
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