Arkansas Church Kicks Out Young Gay Man For ‘Choosing A Sinful Lifestyle’
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lifeisgood
New member
No, Paul is not wrong.
In the midst of the Church inside the building there are members who are greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkard, swindlers, and sexually immoral ones, all calling themselves a member of the Church.
The problem is that the Church, for the most part, seem to be too preoccupied with the 'sexual' sin of its members and not so much preoccupied with the other sins.
Can we find an article saying, "Church Kicks Out Young Slanderer For ‘Choosing A Sinful Lifestyle of Slandering Others’" or how about "Church Kicks Out Young Gossiper for 'Choosing A Sinful Lifestyle of Gossiping'"?
Personally, I know of one congregation that was destroyed because of the sin of gossiping. After the destruction had been accomplished, the truth came out that the gossip was a lie. However, the harm was already done.
My point is that the Church seems to believe that only 'sexual' immorality is the sin that deserves a member to be 'kick out' of it.
Did I hear of another congregation preaching against 'gossiping'? No. I asked a couple of my friends going to other congregations if they heard a sermon against gossiping from their pastor, relating to this particular instance I'm talking about, and the answer was that they had not. Why? Maybe because gossiping is not considered to be a sin?
Obviously, I did not hear every sermon in every church building, but in my circle of friends, no one heard a sermon preached against the sin of gossiping.
But 'sexual' immorality, yes, they have heard a couple of sermons, as have I.
It depends upon which Jesus they recognize.
All we have are interpretations and we have to make our own interpretation from those in the gospels and Paul's letters.
Dear lifeisgood,
Now you are on the right track!!! I've found few like you. God forgives the same way that you do. If God tossed out all the sinners, no one would be left to enter into Heaven. All of you pious people who are against sinners do not KNOW Jesus!! Didn't Jesus say that He hung out with the sinners and tax collectors because they needed Him, not the ones already saved. Don't you understand what I'm saying here? You are so adamant and busy with the LAW that you forget the LOVE and FORGIVENESS of JESUS and GOD!!
Before a person can be forgiven, they have to do something wrong. So FORGIVENESS is not necessary to all of you who think you are perfect. None of you are sinners, eh? Why are you still on Earth instead of being in Heaven so far? You still have things to be changed in your spirit. If God ever gave up on me, I would not be where I am today!! I'm proud of myself, but also understanding of those who haven't yet reached to the point I have. But, you'd better believe that I will love them until they get it together. Now, there are certain Muslims who are beyond help, those who kill randomly, taking people's lives. Paul killed Christians because that was his job according to his Roman ways. But he repented of it, but not after he had killed a good amount of Christians. Now, didn't Jesus forgive him of those things at a certain point in his life? All of us will come to that point in our life to erase our sins and become what God wants of us. Ignoring the sinners isn't the answer. Do not think that I condone ISIS. They kill and should be killed, because they threaten the Church completely. And Jesus' Love And Forgiveness, and Tolerance. I am not saying that one member of ISIS can come to his senses and choose the real God, instead of their perception of God. It is possible easily. Many of them are forced into being a member of ISIS. It's either that, or be killed for confessing that you are a Christian. Isn't it a pity?!! This is getting long, so I'll end it. Just think about it all.
Michael
jzeidler
New member
"Of course repentance is needed for forgiveness.
Whoever taught you differently was either mistaken or deliberately trying to sabotage your salvation."
Show me a new covenant verse that says that forgiveness is gained by repentance not given to all believers purely because of the cross.
"The man in the OP left God to embrace a sinful lifestyle."
Was he living a sinful lifestyle? Yes. But he didn't leave God since he was sitting in a church and wanted to worship God.
"No, you have accepted the doctrine of the Pharisee as your own doctrine, and just like the Pharisee you apply it to everyone except yourself."
Wrong. I was only taking your own statements to the logical conclusion. If anyone is the Pharisee you are.
"Find out what the Bible actually states about when God will accept someone."
So according to you God is a bad dad who only accepts a Christian if they beg for it. He may say that he loves them but we all know he doesn't like them. Glad I know God is my loving father who accepts me because of his grace and Christi work on the cross. Not because of my goodness or piousness.
PureX
Well-known member
Risk is everywhere. Freedom itself is a 'risk'.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i don't have time to try to catch up, but these threads always fall apart when you substitute
"i'm going to embrace the homosexual lifestyle but you still have to accept me as a brother in Christ"
with
"i'm going to embrace the pedophile lifestyle but you still have to accept me as a brother in Christ"
unless there's somebody here willing to argue that unrepentant child molesters who declare their intention to continue molesting children should be welcomed into the Church
"i'm going to embrace the homosexual lifestyle but you still have to accept me as a brother in Christ"
with
"i'm going to embrace the pedophile lifestyle but you still have to accept me as a brother in Christ"
unless there's somebody here willing to argue that unrepentant child molesters who declare their intention to continue molesting children should be welcomed into the Church
As a church that doesn't condone homosexuality I think they did an understandable thing. This shouldn't even be a story. :idunno:
Membership will require a higher standard. If they were trying to ban them completely I'd feel differently.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I agree, and one reason is because I have seen what has happened to some churches in San Francisco. A bunch of gays descended upon the congregation dressed in outlandish garb and heckled the nuns and priest. The churches had better prepare for such antics because it's gonna get worse.
I doubt it, most people aren't going to contact a news agency to cry they were disfellowshipped for being a slanderer. Most people already agree, thats a problem and no one is fighting for "rights" for slanderers.
Sad then that the church you speak of, didnt follow pauls edict and remove that person or persons, and there would not have been that problem. I know personally of churches who removed gossips and slanderers before they wrecked the church. There are good reasons paul says to do so, before the entire church is corrupted by those things he lists and before bitter roots take hold. The corruption is already working with you, because you are defending the one who embraces sin, which would make you a divider in the church, see how that goes?
Sad to see you only see churches that dont follow it all.
I would find a better church.
Ive heard them on all the things paul listed in that verse. Even if you dont hear them, you admit paul was not wrong, so why would you complain about a church following what you admit is not wrong?
How is "well other churches dont follow it, so..." any kind of valid argument?
Lon
Well-known member
Yes. Removing you from membership is not asking you to leave church. It is recognizing you are no longer in compliance with your membership agreement or the standards of Christ you ratified by that membership.
BUT see also:
1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
1Co 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
1Co 5:8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
Good stuff! Sometimes an argument amounts to 'OK, I know you are right objectively, I can't find anything to contradict you there. But each person is right in his own way so I must also be right.' I am guessing that a good many people just like to talk and have others say pleasant things to them. Admitting they are wrong would never cross their mind. Making genuine gains in knowledge and wisdom or making personal sacrifices was never part of their game - because they are human beings and have a right to be mediocre if they wish to be.
And by the way, I have heard lots of sermons about gossipping. Many more than about sexual morality.
genuineoriginal
New member
Acts 26:15-18 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. |
Whoever taught you that forgiveness is unconditional does not know the Bible.
He can't be worshipping God while remaining in his sin.
And, I pointed out that your wrong conclusion came from your acceptance of the doctrines of the Pharisees.
I did not say God is a "bad dad", that was you that said it.
Why do you keep bashing God for simply doing what He has declared He will do?
I was thinking of adding something like that to my last post but thought better of it. Only that life has a habit of making fun of the rules we place on it. The moment you say it, your church will be destroyed by a common or garden case of adultery with the pastor... It can happen. Although the church might not be split, the remaining members are full of shame. They can't evangelise in the local area for another 10 years because everyone calls them hypocrites and the members have no defence to that. If the church is small enough, it might cease to exist in that kind of time.
Even so, I wanted to say what you said because gossip is a 'soft' sin. Adultery is physical and irrevocable, like homosexuality also is and you need to take concrete steps to do it. But words can be easily spoken and perhaps also retracted. For this reason gossip is not regarded as seriously as immorality. But for the same reason, it is easier to do so people need to be warned about it more often and made to understand how it can easily kill the life in a church.
rougueone
New member
I agree with you. You have started some really important threads that I thought would invoke some deep, heartfelt replies. And perhaps hundreds of them. I don't know why they don't . Being from Christians taking a stand for the purpose of our Christ, Jesus..
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rougueone
New member
The church did absolutely love this guy. They embraced him by trying to restore him as God-Scriptures stated. Sin is deadly . Please recall what Gods begotten son endured for our sin. Tortured is being mild. The 40 lashes were " skinned alive" and broken bones with each strike of the whip. The whip was heavy material, laced with stone, and razor sharpened rock. Every blow removed Jesus skin in chunks and broke bones. Hung by nailing ones limbs , to a wood tree beam , stabbed by a sword. To hang under ones body weight untill dead. This is what our Lord endured so we do not have to . SIN >Hell is such. I commend the church for following Gods words, "LOVE" toward this man.
I feel confident that the church probably had more pain for this man than he did for himself.
lifeisgood
New member
If I remember correctly there was something that this sexually immoral person was a member of this congregation for 6 years? Forgive me if I am misstating this. No one ever knew that this person was a sexually immoral person? No one? Not the pastor? Not his close circle of friends in the church? and He all of a sudden just came out and said, 'I am a sexually immoral person,' then, the congregation, 'kicks him out.' I probably missed something when I read the article.
I am NOT complaining about a congregation following Paul's admonition. Never did, never will.
Obviously, I would (and have) moved to another congregation.
What I tried to say, and obviously very badly, is that my experience with some of the sins Paul talk about in this particular verse, I personally, have not heard a sermon about them, did not say, that no sermons about these other sins were never preached.
Ah, BTW, the 'gossiper' that I was talking about, had been swiftly kicked out of the congregation, however, that did not help the congregation at all, which was very sad. I was not a member of this particular congregation.
I used to go to a congregation and when the pastor 'retired' and another came in and started preaching about american idol, etc. I did move to another congregation.
So, I ask your forgiveness for not explaining myself correctly.
rougueone
New member
Agreed. We address sin. Not accept it. We deal with sin before it deals with us.
Sin is obviously from a dark and very real entity-angel called by God as " Satan" in 1 Chronicles 21:1 .
Less the church hands out a " sin questionnaire" prior to every service, confessing our sin is our responsibility. And lack of comes with responsibility. Both effect the person. And those around them . And sin as you noted previously can devastate a church. Let's remember the original sin " Pride", ( which I believe all sin originates from ) , did to the human race. Even after the flood, Noah still carried the seed-spirit of sin . As did his family. Just 8 people on the boat , ( 1 Peter 3:19,20 ). And how quickly sin again spread death.
It is never an easy task to confront sin. But must be done. With love and humility dealing with others. And with ourselves when we personally confess our sin to God through Jesus. That is our motivator-reward , Gods love and humility when we use heartfelt confession when dealing with our sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.1 John 1:8,9,10
And the reward when dealing with others and their sin. This is a very a Spiritually delicate subject. And personal to both or all involved. It is wise to spend time in prayer first, to check our motivation and ask for guidance. I cannot break the overall theme of the Scripture but I will high-lite the " reward" . Thank for enduring....
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. James 5: 13,14,15,16,17,18
Restoring a Sinner and the reward:
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5: 19,20
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