ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Delmar]

Really?

You said you do not believe God controls the weather. I asked if you've read your Bible and done a search with the word 'rain' through the texts. You said, "Yes", without a recantation of saying God is not in control of weather. So this is your argument:

God does not control weather

I've read the Bible (specifically the passages where God says He controls when the rain and thunder and wind starts/stops/goes - basically the weather)

I still believe God does not control the weather​

So ladies and gents, in light of this, deardelmar has admitted to not believing in the Bible.

If you really believed that what you were saying was true why did you have to change my words?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Great. So, since hurricanes are weather related events, you're willing to recant what you said earlier:

Why?

What part of what I said wasn't perfectly accurate?

Z Man why not just admit there is no contradiction? That doesn't mean you have to agree with me but it's silly of you to continue this charade.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you really believe that what your saying is true why did you have to cange my words? You lying stack of ****

delmar... please do not use foul language on TOL. There simply is no reason for it.

 

[Delmar]

delmar... please do not use foul language on TOL. There simply is no reason for it.

I didn't, I simply pressed the * key 4 times. I can use the pureX smiley if you prefer.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So ladies and gents, in light of this, deardelmar has admitted to not believing in the Bible.

Z Man you are acting like a seventh grade school girl.

Maybe you can try a bit harder? Maybe you can up your effort and intellect level just a tad?

What do you say?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I didn't, I simply pressed the * key 4 times.

Yeah... but that is no different than actually using the word in my opinion.

I can use the pureX smiley if you prefer.

I would prefer you just blast Z Man with the truth and let him continue to make a fool of himself.

 

[Delmar]

Yeah... but that is no different than actually using the word in my opinion.

I would prefer you just blast Z Man with the truth and let him continue to make a fool of himself.

By your command Sir Knight!

 

[Delmar]

Z man
If you really believed that what you were saying was true why did you have to change my words? I do believe the Bible! I also disagree with you when you claim the Bible says that God always controls the weather. It simply is not the truth!

 

[Z Man]

Even if you did, it wouldn't establish your thesis. Do you know how to do anything but proof text, Z Man? It that really how you think something is established Biblically?

So whatever the Bible says cannot be established Biblically?

Even if you were to establish that God caused an illness that would not prove or even suggest that God causes ALL illnesses! How is that hard to understand Z Man?

I understand your point. What I don't understand is your proof.

I am not going to be baited into playing like you've made an argument sufficient enough to justify answering this question. It is you who are positing that God causes all disease and it is you who have to prove it. A lack of having been proved wrong does not prove you right!

I've quoted Scriptures that show God causing catastrophe and even one where He Himself states that He creates calamity. Thus, if you want to make a point that God is not the cause of ALL catastrophes, the burden of proof now rests in your hands. Until I see your proof, you have no right to tell me I'm wrong. Would you ever expect a jury to find someone wrong if there was no proof against them? I didn't think so.

Thus, the burden of proof lies in your hands Clete. Better get to researching (Scriptural references, of course. As a Christian, I will accept no less, such as your opinion, or somene elses)...

No one has denied that God has caused some people to have a disease but that is a far cry from proving that He causes all disease! That is your argument! Deny it all you want but it is and you know it.

Prove me wrong. I've presented evidence that says God causes disease. Prove He doesn't cause ALL of them. Until you do, it is safe to assume He causes ALL diseases.

You are suggesting more than that God has creation under control but that He is in meticulous control of every minute event that happens.

Wow... You're in the same camp as Lighthouse - one that is no where near the topic of this thread.

Yes even then Z Man. I'm not going to repeat the argument again. Your argument is fallacious. I've not simply made a case for it, I've proven it. By the rules of necessary inference (logic) your argument is fallacious, by definition. It is therefore of no use in proving or even making a case for your position. If you want to make a case for it using some other valid form of argument then I will be happy to engage you on that argument but you are not going to get me to go on the defensive here by making a counter argument as though you've put forward something of substance that need countering. As it stands your argument is soundly refuted and I'm completely content to leave in that condition for as long as you wish to wallow around in the aftermath.

Saying it doesn't make it so Clete...

I want for you to stop making the same fallacious argument over and over again even after having it directly pointed out to you!
Let me break it down for you since you are seemingly blind to how you just made the exact argument that you are fixing to deny having made in the next sentence.

"God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disability. HE SAID SO HIMSELF!"​

That's a general statement Z Man. See how there is no "all" present in that sentence? You take this general statement which basically says nothing more than that there are diseased and calamities etc that have been caused by God (which no one has denied) and you tack on the following conclusion...

"Therefore God causes all calamity, disease, etc."

Thus you argue that what is true in general is true universally and without qualification. (i.e. for "qualification" read "exception").

Where's your proof that states God is not in control of ALL diseases/catastrophes/calamities?

I don't know how obvious its been but I sort of think it's been obvious enough that I have been very respectful and substantive with you. The only possible exception is my having posted that email which you might have found offensive but even it was posted as a substantive (if not also funny) means of establishing my point against your argument. I'd appreciate no more blatant insults.

You drew first blood with that retarded e-mail. Like I give a crap what some stranger says about my argument anyways. If you had presented the facts straight the first time, there'd have been no retaliation...

:jeffrson:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You drew first blood with that retarded e-mail. Like I give a crap what some stranger says about my argument anyways. If you had presented the facts straight the first time, there'd have been no retaliation...

Please Z Man... come on dude you are acting like a school aged child.

We all have our own personality flaws. The mark of a intelligent man is carefully hiding these flaws from the general public.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Z Man... maybe you missed post #2410

Here it is a second time.....

Let's look at the specific, because that's where your contradiction lies. You believe God causes weather, but doesn't cause weather.

Why are you misrepresenting my position?

That isn't my position and you know it.

My position is.... God caused THE flood in the book of Genesis (He tells us that He caused the flood and He also tells us why He caused the flood). Yet just because God caused THE flood in Genesis doesn't mean He causes EVERY flood thereafter.

Where is the contradiction in my above statement? (in blue)

My father had a backed up sewer pipe in his basement a couple years ago which caused his basement to flood. There was a tree root blocking the sewer pipe which caused the flood. God DID NOT CAUSE the flood in my fathers basement even though God did in fact cause the flood that killed everyone on the earth except Noah and his family.

 

[Delmar]

Where's your proof that states God is not in control of ALL diseases/catastrophes/calamities?

Here is the proof.
The Bible never makes the claim that God is in control of ALL diseases/catastrophes/calamities? It only makes the claim that God is in control of CERTAIN diseases/catastrophes/calamities?
My proof is that you are to dim to get the difference!

 

[God_Is_Truth]

As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is our only source to draw conclusions upon to create theology, or an idea/doctrine of who God is.

I don't think this is right. It certainly cannot have always been this way for then scripture could not have been written in the first place. But I still don't think it's the way it is for us today. God reveals himself in nature, through morality, through reason. I agree that what we know about God apart from the Bible is limited, but I do believe we can get a fair picture of God without it. Don't you agree?

Upon my readings of the Word, I have never stumbled upon any evidence that seems to suggest anyone or anything else in control of calamities, tragedies, or catastrophes.

Well have you read Luke 13?

4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Isn't Jesus's point here that the people were not crushed as a punishment from God, but that it was something that happened on it's own? Jesus says that the people who died were not any worse than the others and so isn't he saying that the tower falling was not a specific judgment from God? How would you interpret this passage?

Right from the beginning in Genesis, God causes a worldwide flood that takes everyone out except eight people. Throughout the whole Bible, we continue to read a God who strikes down people with disease, famine and other weather related events, wars, and even supernatural events (Sodom and Gamorrah - possible meteor or something). God Himself says that He causes these things - the most general statement of Him saying this in Isaiah 45. Even in the New Testament, God is seen causing Paul to suffer (He says Himself that He chose Paul for a life of suffering in Acts 9), making a man blind so Jesus could perform a miracle and bring glory to God, and causing all of the catastrophes spoken of in Revelations (Wormwood, stinging locusts, etc.).

Yes I agree that God has caused many things in history covering a wide range of calamity. But just because he has done many things does not necessarily mean he did them all, correct? Logically, one can be responsible for many things, even many types of things, and not be responsible for causing all of them. Don't you agree?

This is called 'inductive reasoning'. I explained it earlier, and it works well when studying the Bible, assuming it is the only source of truth we have about God.

Well then I think we have a problem because the Bible is not the only source of truth we have about God.

If we were to study over time that all crows we have observed were black, it is fair to conclude that all crows must be black. After studying the Bible for a while and observing that God is behind every catastrophe, I believe it's safe to assume that He is behind every catastrophe (especially since He says so Himself in Isaiah 45!). From all of the overwhelming evidence from Scriptures, there is only one conclusion I could make. God is the primary cause behind catastrophes/calamities. He may execute them through secondary causes, such as Satan, but God is always the primary cause - calamities/catastrophe wouldn't happen without His consent or decree.

I'm interested on your take of Luke 13 above. Are you referring to verse 7 in Isaiah 45?

I have never seen evidence in the Scriptures that seem to suggest that anything or anyone else is the primary cause of events in our lives. I don't understand why Knight believes God can cause a worldwide flood, but will not accept the fact that He also caused a tiny hurricane to destroy New Orleans. To that I ponder where Knight gets his sources to believe God is not behind every catastrophe. Who else would it be? What proof do you have from Scripture? Personally, I do not believe we can use outside sources other than the Bible when making conclusions about God's character.

Does this help you to understand my view God_Is_Truth?

It does help a bit, though I think there could be a couple problems with it. But we'll see how it plays out.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Z Man.... question....

Do you agree with the following principle regardless of subject?

If God causes a specific event to happen, God therefore must cause all other similar events (without exception) to happen.

 

[Z Man]

Great. So, since hurricanes are weather related events, you're willing to recant what you said earlier

Why?

:doh: I seriously believe you suffer from amnesia.

Where have you been the past few posts? I inquired if you believe God caused Katrina, a hurricane, since you believed He caused a massive flood via a torrentous rainstorm - sorta like a super hurricane. You said no. Then you continued with describing to us all what weather is and then inferred that since I attribute Katrina to God that I must be thinking of some pagan gods who controlled the weather.

After some posts, I stated:

You believe God caused a storm, but didn't cause a storm. That's your contridiction.​

To which you replied:

Z Man... are you kidding???

I believe God caused A storm but doesn't necessarily cause ALL storms.​

Still with me here? With this statement, you are saying that God caused a storm (weather), but not all storms, or weather. So, I replied:

To attribute God as the cause behind weather, then turn around and say He's not, is retarded. You believe God causes weather, but doesn't cause weather.​

So the whole time, we've been discussing God's role in weather. You said yourself that you believe God caused a storm - that He was the cause of the weather that created the flood. I wanted to know how you could believe God caused weather, but doesn't cause weather. Then, all of a sudden, you come out and say this:

Why are you misrepresenting my position?

That isn't my position and you know it.

My position is.... God caused THE flood in the book of Genesis....
​

Flood??? You said, in reply to me, that your position wasn't that God doesn't cause weather. And you changed the subject of our debate to the question of whether God causes floods or not. Thus, since your position isn't that God does not cause weather, are you willing to recant what you said earlier?

God did not decree Katrina.

Katrina was a hurricane. Hurricanes are: A severe tropical cyclone originating in the equatorial regions of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea or eastern regions of the Pacific Ocean, traveling north, northwest, or northeast from its point of origin, and usually involving heavy rains.

I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

Z Man why not just admit there is no contradiction? That doesn't mean you have to agree with me but it's silly of you to continue this charade.

It would be easier to debate with you if you wouldn't suddenly change your position midway through our debate.

 

[Delmar]

Z Man... maybe you missed post #2410

Here it is a second time.....

Why are you misrepresenting my position?

That isn't my position and you know it.

My position is.... God caused THE flood in the book of Genesis (He tells us that He caused the flood and He also tells us why He caused the flood). Yet just because God caused THE flood in Genesis doesn't mean He causes EVERY flood thereafter.

Where is the contradiction in my above statement? (in blue)

My father had a backed up sewer pipe in his basement a couple years ago which caused his basement to flood. There was a tree root blocking the sewer pipe which caused the flood. God DID NOT CAUSE the flood in my fathers basement even though God did in fact cause the flood that killed everyone on the earth except Noah and his family.

He's just going to claim that God directed the tree root to grow in that particular sewer pipe. As a matter of fact he pre-ordaned before creation that some bird would drop the seed, to plant that tree, just because God wanted your fathers basment to flood, and make a few bucks for God's favorite plumber!

 

[Z Man]

You drew first blood with that retarded e-mail. Like I give a crap what some stranger says about my argument anyways. If you had presented the facts straight the first time, there'd have been no retaliation...

Please Z Man... come on dude you are acting like a school aged child.

We all have our own personality flaws. The mark of a intelligent man is carefully hiding these flaws from the general public.

I wasn't being serious. It was suppose to be comical relief.

I guess it's hard to judge someone's emotions in reading their words on a screen...

 

[Delmar]

I wasn't being serious. It was suppose to be comical relief.

I guess it's hard to judge someone's emotions in reading their words on a screen...

Isn't comedy suposed to be funny and stuff?

 

[sentientsynth]

The mark of a intelligent man is carefully hiding these flaws from the general public.

:shocked:


That's why I love anonymity!

:devil:

What you see is what you get!

:comeout:

 

[Z Man]

Z man
I do believe the Bible! I also disagree with you when you claim the Bible says that God always controls the weather. It simply is not the truth!

Genesis 2:5
For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth...

Genesis 7:4
For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights...

Exodus 9:18
Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now.

Leviticus 26:4
Then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

De 11:17
...lest the Lord's anger be aroused against you, and He shut up the heavens so that there be no rain...

1Samuel 12:18
So Samuel called to the Lord, and the Lord sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel.



*I like this one: it affirms God causes weather, disease, and calamity, all in one! *

2 Chronicles 7:13
When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people...


Job 5:10
He gives rain on the earth, And sends waters on the fields.

Mark 4:37-41
And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?" Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. But He said to them, "Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?" And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, "Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!"



Gosh... do I really have to post anymore? Because I could. So do you still not believe God controls the weather? If so, you do not believe in the Bible.