ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[sentientsynth]

Oh, whew. Thanks, Lighthouse. I never would have known that was sarcasm unless you would have pointed it out to me. You're so smart, Lighthouse.

 

[Delmar]

Oh, whew. Thanks, Lighthouse. I never would have known that was sarcasm unless you would have pointed it out to me. You're so smart, Lighthouse.

That was fun wasn't it

 

[sentientsynth]

That was fun wasn't it

Fun?!? No way. I was soooo relieved. I was about to PM you to make sure I understood, because I'm so dense. I'm going to subscribe to all of Lighthouse's posts, just to make sure I understand everything from now on.

Oh, what it is to find meaning.......

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Aw c'mon. Not this again.

Freak's made it clear what he meant, Knight. He's guilty of equivocation, but not blasphemy against the Lord, as some (total morons) have said.

Let's move on, please.

What would be the harm in him acknowledging he was wrong?

Isn't that a sign of good fellowship?

It really isn't that hard to do I have done it dozens of times myself.

It goes something like this.....

"I was wrong, I am sorry." Or... "I misspoke, I didn't say it the way I should have said it and I shouldn't have carried on as long as I did. Sorry about that."

That's all it would take. To me, that is a reasonable thing to ask.

SS, maybe one thing you should know is this has been Freak's MO for years and years. In fact he has been banned several times for similar things. If Freak wasn't known for such things it would be much easier to let him slide but the guy has a long history and it does get rather old and makes it hard to have honest conversation with him.

 

[sentientsynth]

What would be the harm in him acknowledging he was wrong?

I don't understand why he won't come right out and plead guilty as charged either. But...he did clarify himself, at least, after I pointed out that he was guilty of equivocating on the word murder.

Isn't that a sign of good fellowship?

Yes.

It really isn't that hard to do I have done it dozens of times myself.

It goes something like this.....

"I was wrong, I am sorry." Or... "I misspoke, I didn't say it the way I should have said it and I shouldn't have carried on as long as I did. Sorry about that."

For some reason, I just like reading those words ... over and over and over....

That's all it would take. To me, that is a reasonable thing to ask.

Perhaps so. I would only ask that you realize what's actually going down: that Freak did try to clarify himself, and outright asserted his meaning here even though he has yet to swallow his pride and out with the fact that he was wrong to equivocate upon a very important, very emotive concept.

SS, maybe one thing you should know is this has been Freak's MO for years and years. In fact he has been banned several times for similar things. If Freak wasn't known for such things it would be much easier to let him slide but the guy has a long history and it does get rather old and makes it hard to have honest conversation with him.

Someone else, who I do consider a friend, was kind enough to inform me of this earlier. (I just love it when people go out of their way to fill me in on important details of which I'm apparently ignorant.) Seeing this is the case, as it has been established by two and now three witnesses, I without qualification condone your request for a retraction.


Freak, just say you're sorry and that you know that God isn't a murderer, to which you've already agreed. How hard would it be to just admit that it was wrong to equivocate on a very important topic? There's no shame in that. Trust me.



SS

 

[Z Man]

God did not decree Katrina.

Katrina was a hurricane. Hurricanes are: A severe tropical cyclone originating in the equatorial regions of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea or eastern regions of the Pacific Ocean, traveling north, northwest, or northeast from its point of origin, and usually involving heavy rains.

You believe God caused a worldwide flood through torrentous rain storms, but He did not cause a hurricane? :dizzy:

I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane, and then you mock me by declaring I believe in Poseidon or some other pagan god who controls the weather.


To the community of this website:

**WARNING**: KNIGHT DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE WEATHER!!!

Genesis 2:4-7
This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth...

Exodus 9:18
Behold, tomorrow about this time I, the Lord, will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now.

De 28:24
The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

1Samuel 12:18
So Samuel called to the Lord, and the Lord sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel.

Do you want me to keep going? Because I could....

Z Man... :chuckle: it was you who brought up John 9, not me. :doh:

It doesn't matter who brought it up. You use John 9 and Luke 13 to illustrate that God does not cause all events, simply because these texts fail to mention God as being the cause. As you have stated so many times, that's called 'proof-texting'. To avoid doing that, I showed you how in other parts of Scripture, God Himself said He causes calamity and makes people disabled. Thus, we find out the real cause behind the tower tragedy in Luke 13 and why the guy was born blind in John 9.

God will bring calamity to the wicked for it is their punishement for their sin.

Round and round we go.... round and round and round... over and over and over... :dizzy:

Right back where we started. Why don't you understand that God not only brings calamity to the wicked, but to the righteous as well? The disciples were as ignorant as you are, and they asked Jesus what the blind man did to deserve to be born that way. Jesus tells them it wasn't what the man did that led God to make Him blind; it was what God wanted. Again, in Luke 13, the disciples, being ignorant, thought the tower that fell on the men in Shiloam was a pass of judgment from God upon those killed for their sins. But Jesus, again, assures them that they were no more wicked than anyone else and God has spared them.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust Knight. God creates calamity for the wicked and just alike. Until you understand this basic, foundational Christian idea, we will never get anywhere in our debates.

God was punishing a wicked ruler....

Whether he was wicked or not isn't the point. The fact is God caused the disease.

I've never seen someone get sick in the Bible where God wasn't the primary cause. Until you can prove otherwise, you will never have an arguement.

Do you believe that God is righteous?

Of course.

Do you believe that God does unrighteous things?[/b]

God can do anything, and whatever He does can never be 'unrighteous'. He's the ultimate judge, not you; don't forget that.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God can do anything, and whatever He does can never be 'unrighteous'.

Notice how Z Man answered a different question than I asked?

Think it was by mistake? :ha: Think again!

Z Man... I didn't ask "can God BE unrighteous?"

Instead, I asked...

Do you believe that God does unrighteous things?

Please try to answer the questions as asked.

 

[Z Man]

You haven't even established that God caused all of the illnesses etc, in the Bible yet!

I'm not going to post every verse that says God caused a disease or illness. The Bible proves it itself. You can find them yourself through your own study.

The Bible says that God was the cause of an illness in certain individuals - I'm sure we could both agree on that. To me, that's enough evidence to suggest that God causes disease. I don't understand why you need more. Why isn't Scripture enough for you? God Himself said He causes illness, and yet you still want more proof. What better proof is there? Are you waiting for a certain human being to say God causes illness to believe? Are you waiting for a certain amount of cases to prove God causes illness? Who better than God to say it Himself to prove a point?

If you believe God causes some illness, but not all of it, then who or what causes it in other instances? What Scripture examples do you have to prove your case?

You have not even established that God caused all the "bad" things that happened in the Bible.

I don't have to. Read it yourself. Besides, I've provided adequate Scripture to make a valid point. For crying out loud, God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disabilities! What more do you want?

Is there another source out there Clete that we as Christians need to take as seriously as the Bible?

That depends on what sort of truth you are looking for. The Bible is superlative and unsurpassable for matters of theology but not so great for meteorology, biology or physics. The Bible is not a weather text book or a biology text book or a physics text book or any other such thing.

We're looking for the cause of weather, biology, physics - not how it works. We know the basic principles behind weather, etc. But the textbooks will never tell us the ultimate cause. The Bible, however, does! The Bible clearly tells us that God is in control of the weather (no matter how much Knight disapproves), creates peace and calamity, causes disabilities, and on and on. God is the primary cause behind everything. My conclusion is based upon what I have read in Scriptures numerous times, from numerous cases and scenarios. Biblical evidence isn't good enough for you, thus the reason I asked what other sources do you suppose?

Making sweeping statements about how the weather works and how illnesses are caused and other such things based entirely on an inductive inference from Biblical texts is dubious at best. You need much more than that.

Not if I want to find out if God is the cause.

Further still, you are still trying to make an argument that is fallacious. Remember the other fallacy I mentioned called "Dicto Simpliciter"? It is a fallacy that is committed when one argues that what is true in general is true universally and without qualification.

The Biblical texts are my qualification! How can you state that we cannot make conclusions based upon the 'unqualified' Scriptures???

God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disability. HE SAID SO HIMSELF! Still not good enough for you? What more do you want Clete?

I sent the following email to a guy at fallacyfiles.org....

Greetings,

I was searching through your website trying to find out what sort of logical fallacy a debate opponent of mine is using and I'm not sure if I found it or not. I was hoping you could help me confirm whether or not I've got it or whether this fallacy falls better into a different category.

The fallacious argument basically goes like this...

God caused some catastrophes to occur therefore God causes all catastrophes to occur.

The best fit I could find to this silliness is Dicto Simpliciter, or a fallacy of accident. Is that correct or is there another named fallacy that would fit this better?


Thank you very much for your time and congratulations on having put together a terrifically useful and informative website!

Yours,
Clete Pfeiffer​

And here's his very breif and to the point response...

If that's really what he's arguing, it's such a bad argument that it
doesn't have a name, as far as I know. If you have to have a name, you
could always call it a "non sequitur", since that is the general term
for an obviously uncogent argument.

Hope that helps!​

Oh! I just love this guy!

Sorry Z Man, I really am not trying to poke fun at you at all. I just couldn't believe it when I read that answer and had to show it around.

Of course that's a horrible argument, but it's definitly not mine.

The fallacious argument basically goes like this...

God caused some catastrophes to occur therefore God causes all catastrophes to occur.

I've never argued that God only causes some catastrophes - my argument has always been that God causes all catastrophes in the Bible, thus we can reasonably conclude that He causes them all in our lives and others as well.

You've embarassed yourself. You have e-mailed a guy a false statement about me, and then posted it on this website, and it backfires on you. Why don't you try sending him another e-mail and this time tell the truth. Tell him that my argument is that God caused all catastrophes to occur in the Bible, thus God causes all catastrophes to occur. I'm sure he'll tell you that's legite (unless he doesn't believe the Scriptures are truth).

Next time, be a little more careful about what you say of others so you won't look so dumb. :dunce:

 

[Z Man]

Where does the Bible say their son suffered? And what makes you think a seven day old child knows what tragedy is, let alone experiences it. Especially since that child is quite likely in heaven, now.

So are you suggesting it's ok for God to kill babies? Great, we're on the same page then. :thumb:

We never said God does not cause these things in people's lives who are not in judgment, but we have said that not all sickness, suffering and tragedy is caused by God.

Proof?

 

[sentientsynth]

POFFT OV DA DAY! :first:

YAAAAY! POFFT OV DA DAY!

 

[Z Man]

Notice how Z Man answered a different question than I asked?

Think it was by mistake? :ha: Think again!

Z Man... I didn't ask "can God BE unrighteous?"

Instead, I asked...

Do you believe that God does unrighteous things?

Please try to answer the questions as asked.

I did answer your question as asked Knight. I'll save you the embarrassment and let you try to figure it out on your own.

Now, on to the important matters that you conviently ignored:

• You believe God caused a worldwide flood through torrentous rain storms, but He did not cause a hurricane?
  
  

  I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

  And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane, and then you mock me by declaring I believe in Poseidon or some other pagan god who controls the weather.
  
  
  To the community of this website:
  
  **WARNING**: KNIGHT DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE WEATHER!!!
  
  Genesis 2:4-7
  This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth...
  
  Exodus 9:18
  Behold, tomorrow about this time I, the Lord, will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now.
  
  De 28:24
  The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
  
  1Samuel 12:18
  So Samuel called to the Lord, and the Lord sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel.

• Why don't you understand that God not only brings calamity to the wicked, but to the righteous as well?
  
  The disciples were as ignorant as you are, and they asked Jesus what the blind man did to deserve to be born that way. Jesus tells them it wasn't what the man did that led God to make Him blind; it was what God wanted. Again, in Luke 13, the disciples, being ignorant, thought the tower that fell on the men in Shiloam was a pass of judgment from God upon those killed for their sins. But Jesus, again, assures them that they were no more wicked than anyone else and God has spared them.
  
  The rain falls on the just and the unjust Knight. God creates calamity for the wicked and just alike.

• I've never seen someone get sick in the Bible where God wasn't the primary cause. Do you have Biblical evidence that suggests God WAS NOT the primary cause of an illness?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I've never argued that God only causes some catastrophes - my argument has always been that God causes all catastrophes in the Bible, thus we can reasonably conclude that He causes them all in our lives and others as well.

You need to explain the steps you took that led you to your conclusion. In other words, it's not logically clear why it should be the case that (assuming your premises are true) since God causes all catastrophes in the BIble, then every catastrophe that ever took place was caused by God. You need to explain why that should be accepted as true. Before even addressing whether the premises are true you need to show how your argument flows.

 

[Delmar]

... you need to show how your argument flows.

Like that's going to happen.

 

[godrulz]

Can God not use evil spirits (demons) in judgment and for His purposes? They are on a short leash. Likewise, God can use evil nations to judge Israel and will judge demons and nations in the end. God does not do evil, but He can use evil for higher purposes (judgment, etc...He allows dictators to oppress people, but will judge them). I do not think it is exegetically or theologically necessary to say it is the 'spirit of Christmas' (cf. Paul's thorn being a messenger of Satan/demon or Job/Satan scenario). I would not say a believer can be possessed by a spirit, but they can be buffeted or oppressed. This is spiritual warfare.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane, and then you mock me by declaring I believe in Poseidon or some other pagan god who controls the weather.

Please show me the contradiction.

If a person causes a traffic accident it is not logical to assume they cause ALL traffic accidents.

And is someone rightly defends them as says... "they caused THIS SPECIFIC accident they don't cause ALL traffic accidents" there is no contradition in that defense.

 

[Z Man]

You need to explain the steps you took that led you to your conclusion. In other words, it's not logically clear why it should be the case that (assuming your premises are true) since God causes all catastrophes in the Bible, then every catastrophe that ever took place was caused by God. You need to explain why that should be accepted as true.

Very well. I think you have addressed the core of the problem in debate which is miscommunication and assumption. In a sense, both lead two parties to talk past one another.

As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is our only source to draw conclusions upon to create theology, or an idea/doctrine of who God is. Upon my readings of the Word, I have never stumbled upon any evidence that seems to suggest anyone or anything else in control of calamities, tragedies, or catastrophes. Right from the beginning in Genesis, God causes a worldwide flood that takes everyone out except eight people. Throughout the whole Bible, we continue to read a God who strikes down people with disease, famine and other weather related events, wars, and even supernatural events (Sodom and Gamorrah - possible meteor or something). God Himself says that He causes these things - the most general statement of Him saying this in Isaiah 45. Even in the New Testament, God is seen causing Paul to suffer (He says Himself that He chose Paul for a life of suffering in Acts 9), making a man blind so Jesus could perform a miracle and bring glory to God, and causing all of the catastrophes spoken of in Revelations (Wormwood, stinging locusts, etc.).

This is called 'inductive reasoning'. I explained it earlier, and it works well when studying the Bible, assuming it is the only source of truth we have about God. If we were to study over time that all crows we have observed were black, it is fair to conclude that all crows must be black. After studying the Bible for a while and observing that God is behind every catastrophe, I believe it's safe to assume that He is behind every catastrophe (especially since He says so Himself in Isaiah 45!). From all of the overwhelming evidence from Scriptures, there is only one conclusion I could make. God is the primary cause behind catastrophes/calamities. He may execute them through secondary causes, such as Satan, but God is always the primary cause - calamities/catastrophe wouldn't happen without His consent or decree.

I have never seen evidence in the Scriptures that seem to suggest that anything or anyone else is the primary cause of events in our lives. I don't understand why Knight believes God can cause a worldwide flood, but will not accept the fact that He also caused a tiny hurricane to destroy New Orleans. To that I ponder where Knight gets his sources to believe God is not behind every catastrophe. Who else would it be? What proof do you have from Scripture? Personally, I do not believe we can use outside sources other than the Bible when making conclusions about God's character.

Does this help you to understand my view God_Is_Truth?

 

[Z Man]

Please show me the contradiction.

It's not worth my time. If I have to show you your contradiction, then you're a :dunce:.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It's not worth my time. If I have to show you your contradiction, then you're a :dunce:.

The truth is there is no contradiction.

Does anyone else see the contradiction Z Man is alluding to?

Here is his statement again....

And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane

Where is the contradiction??

 

[Delmar]

Please show me the contradiction.

If a person causes a traffic accident it is not logical to assume they cause ALL traffic accidents.

And is someone rightly defends them as says... "they caused THIS SPECIFIC accident they don't cause ALL traffic accidents" there is no contradition in that defense.

but you didn't prove that the person didn't cause ALL traffic accidents.

 

[Z Man]

The truth is there is no contradiction.

Does anyone else see the contradiction Z Man is eluding to?

Here is his statement again....Where is the contradiction??

You believe God caused a storm, but didn't cause a storm. That's your contridiction. :duh: