ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[godrulz]

But if God can intervene and chooses not to, doesn't this render him in effect responsible for everything that happens.

For example, you see a child playing the street and coming down that street you see a car. You know that unless you intervene the child will be hit and likely killed and that you have plenty of time to intervene without any treat to yourself. If you stand aside and allow the child, would you not then bear some, if not all, of the responsibility for that child's death?

Am I responsible if my grown children get drunk and drive and kill someone? Giving birth does not mean parents are the immediate, culpable cause of subsequent free choices by the person. Creating the parameters of freedom does not make God responsible when creatures unnecessarily misuse their freedom.

If God were to intervene in every contingency or accident, there would be no ultimate freedom, rational existence, growth, etc. The nature of the creation He sovereignly chose makes accidents a possibility. Many accidents are actually preventable.

John Sanders in "The God who risks" does a better job of explaining biblically and philosophically why God is not ultimately responsible for evil or not intervening all the time.

People blame God for things that demons or man are primarily responsible for.

 

[godrulz]

There is no reason to post examples to prove God's exhaustive control if you already have it made up in your mind that even if there were such examples, it doesn't prove anything. Which brings me back to my original question:

Why do you believe God can intervene sometimes but not all of the time?

God can intervene all of the time if He wanted to. The biblical and anecdotal evidence is that God sovereignly chose a creation where He did not intervene all the time. He has given others significant freedom and say so. We have the power to procreate through sexual intercourse. Sex is a highly abused sin outside the parameters of God's original intention. The Bible judges sexual sin as contrary to God's will. Do not impugn God by saying He controls or causes all the hideous sexual perversions, including child sodomy. This is contrary to His explicitly revealed character. Seems to me a hyper-control person here actually made God responsible for such perversions.

 

[themuzicman]

Idisputably. But on what basis does can God choose not intervene and we still claim he is morally good.

Based upon God's own Word, which He will not violate. If God created mankind to have a free will, then for God to violate that free will would be a violation of God's own Word regarding creation.

To go back to my analogy, on what basis could a man choose not intervene and allow the child to die without his non-intervention being an immoral act?

If the man was morally bound to non-intervention, then he would be morally obligated not to intervene.

(The analogy to God isn't quite accurate, since none of us is innocent, and all deserve the temporal and eternal consequences of sin. God is certainly within His just nature to allow the consequences of mankind's sin to be visited upon members of mankind.)

Muz

 

[Clete]

Is God then immoral in those limited circumstances where in the Bible he obviously violates "free will"? The most obvious example of course being his decision to harden Pharoh's heart in regards to freeing the Isrealites.

Pharoah could have repented if he had wanted to but he hardened his own heart and did not repent, as the text clearly states. God simply poured it on thick by performing miracle after miracle knowing of course that it would only cement Pharoah's heart even further. In effect, Pharoah asked for some rope to hang himself with and God gave it to him in abundance. That's not only a moral thing but demonstably a Godly thing to do to one's enemies.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Is God then immoral in those limited circumstances where in the Bible he obviously violates "free will"? The most obvious example of course being his decision to harden Pharoh's heart in regards to freeing the Isrealites.

Does God tell us that He created a "marred vessel" in Pharaoh? Or does the Bible tell us that God used an "already marred vessel" (Pharaoh) for His own purposes? :think:

The answer to that question makes all the difference in the world.

And the best part is, it's right there in our Bible in God's own words for us to read for ourself.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You can try and justify those scriptures to agree with your views, but the point of it all still stands that GOD is the one who is in control of disease. The woman you talked about in the beginning of this thread did not just get cancer without God knowing about it or ordaining it.

"Knowing it" and "ordaining it" are two dramatically different things.

But more imprtantly.... you completely ignored my refutation of your point.

Let me simplify my point so you might respond...

In the verses... Le 26:16, 2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18,De 7:15, De 28:61 which YOU brought up, is God punishing the people in these stories because they were obedient or disobedient towards God?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Could you please point out where the text clearly states this?

Not to step on Clete's "toes" but can I ask a quick question first?

Did God want to bring harm to Egypt just to amuse Himself? Or did God God want Pharaoh to let His people go?

What was God's motivation for having Moses and Aaron tell Pharaoh that God was going to smite Egypt?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

In my opinion Paul's statement in Romans leans towards the first of those two options, do you read it differently?

Of course, I read it differently and so will you.

You must dig deeper.

What verse from the Old Testament was Paul referring to in Romans?

 

[Delmar]

In my opinion Paul's statement in Romans leans towards the first of those two options, do you read it differently?

When Paul wrote Romans he was aware that Jer 18 was allready in the Bible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

When Paul wrote Romans he was aware that Jer 18 was allready in the Bible.

Come on now... don't do all the heavy lifting for Urizen.

 

[Z Man]

God can intervene all of the time if He wanted to. The biblical and anecdotal evidence is that God sovereignly chose a creation where He did not intervene all the time. He has given others significant freedom and say so.

So, basically you believe that the Bible provides evidence in the fact that God only sovereignly intervenes in our lives sometimes, and not all of the time, correct? You stated, and I quote:

"He has given others significant freedom and say so."

But not to everyone? As you have stated earlier, He does intervene in some peoples lives. But again, it begs the question, why doesn't God just stay out of everyone's lives? Why interfere with some and not all? Why do you argue that God takes control sometimes, when necessary, but not all of the time? Other than saying the bible says so, you haven't presented any evidence to show that God does not intervene all of the time, rather than sometimes.

 

[Delmar]

So, basically you believe that the Bible provides evidence in the fact that God only sovereignly intervenes in our lives sometimes, and not all of the time, correct? You stated, and I quote:

"He has given others significant freedom and say so."

But not to everyone? As you have stated earlier, He does intervene in some peoples lives. But again, it begs the question, why doesn't God just stay out of everyone's lives? Why interfere with some and not all? Why do you argue that God takes control sometimes, when necessary, but not all of the time? Other than saying the bible says so, you haven't presented any evidence to show that God does not intervene all of the time, rather than sometimes.

What evidence would be more persuasive than what the Bible says?

 

[Z Man]

"Knowing it" and "ordaining it" are two dramatically different things.

But more imprtantly.... you completely ignored my refutation of your point.

Let me simplify my point so you might respond...

In the verses... Le 26:16, 2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18,De 7:15, De 28:61 which YOU brought up, is God punishing the people in these stories because they were obedient or disobedient towards God?

Knight,

Your argument from the very first post in this thread has been that God does not give people diseases. I have proved you wrong on several occasions with evidence from the Bible that states God in fact does give people diseases. You, in rebuttal, have shifted your argument to mean that God only gives diseases to people as punishment. However, you have failed to recognize Job's faults, or David's firstborn son's faults, or the blind man's faults from John 9. These people were not disobediant to God, and they received diseases from Him.

However, all of that is beside the main point of this entire thread from the very first post. You said God did not give people diseases, but you've been proven wrong via Scriptures. Your continued argument is invalid on this point, unless you are willing to claim that the Scriptures are false.

 

[Delmar]

Come on now... don't do all the heavy lifting for Urizen.

How much do you want to bet Urizen won't even look up Jer 18?

 

[Z Man]

What evidence would be more persuasive than what the Bible says?

None. But what evidence from the Bible do you have?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

Your argument from the very first post in this thread has been that God does not give people diseases. I have proved you wrong on several occasions with evidence from the Bible that states God in fact does give people diseases. You, in rebuttal, have shifted your argument to mean that God only gives diseases to people as punishment. However, you have failed to recognize Job's faults, or David's firstborn son's faults, or the blind man's faults from John 9. These people were not disobediant to God, and they received diseases from Him.

However, all of that is beside the main point of this entire thread from the very first post. You said God did not give people diseases, but you've been proven wrong via Scriptures. Your continued argument is invalid on this point, unless you are willing to claim that the Scriptures are false.

Cat got your tongue?

Let's try again....

In the verses... Le 26:16, 2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18,De 7:15, De 28:61 which YOU brought up, is God punishing the people in these stories because they were obedient or disobedient towards God?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How much do you want to bet Urizen won't even look up Jer 18?

Urizen seems to be a good and honest guy, I bet he will look into it. :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

However, you have failed to recognize Job's faults, or David's firstborn son's faults, or the blind man's faults from John 9. These people were not disobediant to God, and they received diseases from Him.

Are you on crack?

- God didn't do a thing to Job!
- David WAS DISOBEDIENT towards God.
- and the blind man in John was healed! :duh: The Bible doesn't state that God made the man blind, instead Jesus was able to make the man see! Praise the Lord!

You have a serious inability to understand what is clearly written in your Bible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There are verses both in Jeremiah and in Isaiah that utilize a similar metaphor. Don't see either as really altering the meaning though.

Really?

Jeremiah 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

The vessel was already marred in the hand of the potter THEREFORE "he made it again into another vessel".

 

[Clete]

Could you please point out where the text clearly states this?

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.​

If you read through the story, it's clear the the hardening of his heart was a result of the miracles which God performed. God knew Pharoah's heart and knew that in spite of the fact that he was capable of repenting that he would not do so. Especially if someone publically started showing off that he (Pharaoh) wasn't really the god he claimed to be. God knows us better than we know ourselves, His prediction of Pharaoh's rebelion against God would not have been a difficult prediction to make for anyone, much less God.

Resting in Him,
Clete