ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Grandy]

Agree 100%

Agree 100%

Knight,

I agree with you about Calvanism and about this lady 100%. I used to be a Calvanist but I don't remember ever giving God credit for the bad things that happened to me.

BTW I love your banner "Judging For Dummies".

Lola

OK… I gotta vent.

I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology. But there are some times I simply can’t be patient or cordial because this twisted sick, perverted theology is sometimes too much to handle.

Today I was listening to a Christian station on the radio. And there was a public service spot which featured a woman explaining a heart wrenching story. She explained that she was diagnosed with Leukemia on her child’s first birthday. She explained that she was treated with intense chemotherapy. She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked:

Can you imagine that?

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser?

People are just plain stupid.

:dunce:

 

[Z Man]

Knight,

I agree with you about Calvanism and about this lady 100%.

Like Knight, you must not read your bible much:

Le 26:16
I also will do this to you: I [the Lord] will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18
...behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction--your children, your wives, and all your possessions; and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. ... After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

De 7:15
And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.

De 28:61
Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.

John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

Matthew 5:45
[God] makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

 

[Poly]

Knight,

I agree with you about Calvanism and about this lady 100%. I used to be a Calvanist but I don't remember ever giving God credit for the bad things that happened to me.

Um..... Mom? You and I did attend the same church when I was growing up, right?

Just kidding! No disrespect here, ma'am. :noid:

I just thought I'd let you know that here, TOL can set you free and you can just say it like it is. :chuckle:

Since Calvinism teaches that everything is predestined by God then it must teach that God gets the credit even for the bad things that happen. What you said is what I used to say as a Calvinist because we were taught to say the right thing (God doesn't cause bad things to happen), and even profess to believe it, yet, at the same time we were also taught that the opposite was really true. :freak:

Calvinists claim God is good and evil is never to be attributed to Him but it was with a :: wink, wink :: (we really believe what the "higher" understanding is which is that God really did predestine even the evil things.)

It was that famous double talk and we were taught that we were justified in doing so because, remember? We were the "enlightened" ones. God chose to reveal this "higher dimension of teaching and understanding of predestination" to us. So if it meant we had to talk out both sides of our mouth to support it then so be it. After all, "His ways are not our ways" and it was such a profound doctrine that even if it didn't make sense, you were the more spiritual Christian to accept it, and this pleased God that you were willing to do so.
(Are you sensing any dripping sarcasm here? )

Us "former" Calvinists don't have to double talk any more!!! :bannana:

Anyway, I know we've talked about this and that we agree on this being what we were taught. So I really wasn't addressing this to you as much as I was clearing up any misunderstanding somebody might have by what you said. (Ok, so I'm a paranoid child!)

BTW I love your banner "Judging For Dummies".

Ain't it grand?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Like Knight, you must not read your bible much:

Le 26:16
I also will do this to you: I [the Lord] will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18
...behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction--your children, your wives, and all your possessions; and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. ... After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

De 7:15
And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.

De 28:61
Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.

John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

Matthew 5:45
[God] makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Z Man... certain times in the Bible God punishes the wicked (as the verses you quote reference).

But why does He punish the wicked?

Why is He mad at them?

Is it because they conformed to His will? Or is it because they rejected His will?

Let's examine the first verse you referenced....

Le 26:16
I also will do this to you: I [the Lord] will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Why is it that you didn't paste the verses directly before that? Hmmm? That's odd! :think:

Let's read the whole thing in context and see if it affirms your view that men can ONLY do the will of God.

Leviticus 26:14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

That's pretty clear to anyone not blinded by Calvinism.

God says.. if you DISOBEY Me I THEN, I will do these things to you.

Z Man, your view is that God ordained their disobedience (which of course makes disobedience into obedience) and then punished them for their obedience. :kookoo:

That's Just plain sick.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Z Man's critical thinking skills exposed.....

OK lets examine the next set of three verses Z Man used to demonstrate that every person on earth that gets cancer has been given cancer from God. :bang:

Again, these verses demonstrate the opposite point that Z Man is trying to make, God is punishing people for NOT conforming to His will! Did you get that Z Man? NOT CONFORMING TO HIS WILL!!!!!

So why did God do the following?

2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18
...behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction--your children, your wives, and all your possessions; and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. ... After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

Because man DISOBEYED!!!!

Let's read the preceding...

2 Chronicles 21:8 In his days the Edomites revolted against Judah’s authority, and made a king over themselves. 9 So Jehoram went out with his officers, and all his chariots with him. And he rose by night and attacked the Edomites who had surrounded him and the captains of the chariots. 10 Thus Edom has been in revolt against Judah’s authority to this day. At that time Libnah revolted against his rule, because he had forsaken the LORD God of his fathers. 11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit harlotry, and led Judah astray. 12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus says the LORD God of your father David: Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot like the harlotry of the house of Ahab, and also have killed your brothers, those of your father’s household, who were better than yourself,

Obey God and be blessed! Disobey God (which Z Man rejects is possible) and bad things might happen to you!

This is getting really painful but lets examine the rest of these anyway....

The next verse Z Man referenced is self explanatory...

De 7:15
And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.

Obey God and be blessed! Disobey God (which Z Man rejects is possible) and bad things might happen to you!

Let's go to the next verse.

Again... why does God warn the following???

De 28:61
Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Because He doesn't want man to DISOBEY Him!!!!

Let's read the preceding...

Deuteronomy 28:58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 “then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues — great and prolonged plagues — and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 “Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you.

It's a pretty easy concept to follow...
"If you do not obey... THEN the Lord will bring!" Get it?

Obey God and be blessed! Disobey God (which Z Man rejects is possible) and bad things might happen to you!

For any of these verses to make any sense we humans MUST have the ability to DISOBEY God and His will Z Man rejects that is possible.

None of this has anything to do with us "not reading our Bibles" as Z Man asserts, instead it has everything to do with Z Man's inability to critically think about the verses he uses to make his twisted point.

I will get to the other verses he referenced later (those will be even MORE revealing!).

 

[Grandy]

Um..... Mom? You and I did attend the same church when I was growing up, right?

Just kidding! No disrespect here, ma'am. :noid:

I just thought I'd let you know that here, TOL can set you free and you can just say it like it is. :chuckle:

Since Calvinism teaches that everything is predestined by God then it must teach that God gets the credit even for the bad things that happen. What you said is what I used to say as a Calvinist because we were taught to say the right thing (God doesn't cause bad things to happen), and even profess to believe it, yet, at the same time we were also taught that the opposite was really true. :freak:

Calvinists claim God is good and evil is never to be attributed to Him but it was with a :: wink, wink :: (we really believe what the "higher" understanding is which is that God really did predestine even the evil things.)

It was that famous double talk and we were taught that we were justified in doing so because, remember? We were the "enlightened" ones. God chose to reveal this "higher dimension of teaching and understanding of predestination" to us. So if it meant we had to talk out both sides of our mouth to support it then so be it. After all, "His ways are not our ways" and it was such a profound doctrine that even if it didn't make sense, you were the more spiritual Christian to accept it, and this pleased God that you were willing to do so.
(Are you sensing any dripping sarcasm here? )

Us "former" Calvinists don't have to double talk any more!!! :bannana:

Anyway, I know we've talked about this and that we agree on this being what we were taught. So I really wasn't addressing this to you as much as I was clearing up any misunderstanding somebody might have by what you said. (Ok, so I'm a paranoid child!)




Ain't it grand?

Very well said, thanx Poly. Yes the only way you can live with the Calvanist belief is to talk out of both sides of your mouth, so true, so true.
Thanx for clarifying my thougt

 

[thelaqachisnext]

This thread is old and just reopened, I see, so I began to read it for the first time just today; but the arguments are the same, from Calvinists, as always, and writen in gross and blind error.

Calvinism is not based upon the Bible, so I don't know why we would even argue the points of tulip.

Calvin is not in the Bible and he did not receive his doctrine from the Holy Spirit. He is not a father of the Church of Jesus Christ nor was he a follower of Jesus Christ.


I do not believe Calvin was a saved man, as we are to know them by their fruits, and his fruit was rotten to the core; and if we had lived under him in his day, in Geneva, (or under many of his disciples in many other days in many other places), many of us would have been imprisoned, tortured, and burned at the stake or drowned for following Jesus Christ, and Him, alone.
Though Calvinism is not found in the Bible, and is just another daughter of the harlot, within Calvinism there are saved believers who are born again in spite of their false doctrine, just as there are some saved souls in Roman Catholicism in spite of the false doctrines in that daughter of the harlot, also, just as there were some saved souls in Sardis who would have been worthy to be 'raptured' in their regenerated bodies if Jesus had come to receive them to Himself in the gathering of the harvest of sons of God, so that the great tribulation could commence, while they were still alive and remaining.

Calvin is not the foundation stone of the Church of Jesus Christ. The foundation was laid centuries before Calvin -or Augustine, lived. The Church of Jesus Christ is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner stone. The prophets who are chosen for that one foundation, along with the Apostles, are those Old Testament prophets, who spoke of Jesus Christ from the Beginning.
Jesus Christ was the last prophet and His Word is the last word to mankind. Calvin was just another mislead false teacher who many followed blndly, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
It is a shame that the Testimony of Scripture is laid aside for the doctrines of blind men, which doctrines are argued endlessly against all truth.

The oracles were commited to the Jews only, which teach the truth of salvation through the blood of sprinkling, once, for all, 'in Adam' -whosoever will.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

 

[Clete]

thelaqachisnext,

May I ask for some clarification...

What precisely are you referring to when you use the term "Church of Jesus Christ"?

Are you referring to the familiar denomination or something else? If it's something else, please specifiy what you mean.

I ask because, frankly, your post sounds a bit on the wacky side and I'm just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from on this. (No insult intended, we're all a bit on the wacky side from time to time.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't recall ever seeing a post from you before so, welcome to TOL! :up:

 

[Poly]

Very well said, thanx Poly. Yes the only way you can live with the Calvanist belief is to talk out of both sides of your mouth, so true, so true.
Thanx for clarifying my thougt

:up:

When you posted that, I knew you were just referring to what we were taught to claim, so now that we really do believe that God doesn't bring about evil, maybe it's not a big deal to still make the claim that we believed it "wink, wink" back then too.

See, I knew this but knowing others wouldn't, was making me a little... well......

freakin' nuts! :freak:

So if I didn't clarify this, I'd probably been pacing the floor, unable to sleep at night, obsessing over it, 24/7.

Next thing you know, I'm having to go into therapy, I start talking to myself, hearing voices.... :noid: :dizzy: :hammer:

So, it just had to be done, you know, for the sake of my health.

 

[godrulz]

thelaqachisnext,

May I ask for some clarification...

What precisely are you referring to when you use the term "Church of Jesus Christ"?

Are you referring to the familiar denomination or something else? If it's something else, please specifiy what you mean.

I ask because, frankly, your post sounds a bit on the wacky side and I'm just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from on this. (No insult intended, we're all a bit on the wacky side from time to time.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't recall ever seeing a post from you before so, welcome to TOL! :up:

Ask about the doctrines behind his TOL name...

 

[Clete]

Ask about the doctrines behind his TOL name...

The 'laqach' is next. = The 'taking away' is next.

It has to do with the rapture I presume.

 

[hermes]

"And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men who are complacent, who say in their heart,, the LORD will not do good, neither will He do evil." Zeph. 1:12 By this, God charges Judah with a form of atheism. They are complacent and believe (1.) God will not do good--that is, any good that comes to them, rather than being thankful to God for it, their attitude is atheistic. They give themselves credit for the good that befalls them. (2.) by saying, "neither will He do evil," they reject the notion that God has the right and does execute judgement against His people, therefore when evil befalls them they are incapable of believing that God is exercising judgement upon their wickedness and so they complacently continue in their ways.

"Who is he who saith and it cometh to pass when the LORD commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" Lam. 3: 37-39

"Because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife, thus saith the LORD, behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Sam. 12:10-12
"So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."
2 Sam. 16:22

"Then his wife said unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? Curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:9,10

 

[Pursuing_Truth]

I do not believe Calvin was a saved man, as we are to know them by their fruits, and his fruit was rotten to the core; and if we had lived under him in his day, in Geneva, (or under many of his disciples in many other days in many other places), many of us would have been imprisoned, tortured, and burned at the stake or drowned for following Jesus Christ, and Him, alone.

Some apologize for these actions that you have mentioned by putting the events in the context of what was going on at the time and explaining the motivations behind what he did. Knowing this makes his actions more understandable but not more acceptable. I do not defend these actions you have mentioned.

However, is it really wise to claim to know whether he was truly converted or not? Yes, we can look at one's fruits but we still cannot know for sure whether they have been regenerated. Does sin in our life, even gross sin, negate the value of all of one's words and writings? Shouldn't his writings be weighed against Scripture more so than his life? Yes, I think the life of the writer can give us insight into his writings but Scripture should ultimately determine whether one's writings are biblical or not.

 

[godrulz]

The 'laqach' is next. = The 'taking away' is next.

It has to do with the rapture I presume.

I thought he was the one with a confusing doctrine about Adam and how we are Adams, or something...I could be wrong. I thought I remembered long, confusing posts of things I have never heard before.

 

[Z Man]

Knight,

You can try and justify those scriptures to agree with your views, but the point of it all still stands that GOD is the one who is in control of disease. The woman you talked about in the beginning of this thread did not just get cancer without God knowing about it or ordaining it.

Some of the verses I posted may have been examples of God punishing people, but the truth still remains that the disease was given to them by God. Other examples of people being diagnosed with a disease who weren't being punished are Job, David's firstborn, and the blind guy in John 11, all of whom you failed to talk about in your critique, which doesn't surprise me.

Until you can prove that God does not give people diseases period, regardless if they were being punished or not, then your argument is moot.

 

[drbrumley]

Knight,

You can try and justify those scriptures to agree with your views, but the point of it all still stands that GOD is the one who is in control of disease. The woman you talked about in the beginning of this thread did not just get cancer without God knowing about it or ordaining it.

Some of the verses I posted may have been examples of God punishing people, but the truth still remains that the disease was given to them by God. Other examples of people being diagnosed with a disease who weren't being punished are Job, David's firstborn, and the blind guy in John 11, all of whom you failed to talk about in your critique, which doesn't surprise me.

Until you can prove that God does not give people diseases period, regardless if they were being punished or not, then your argument is moot.

Feelin froggy again are we?

 

[drbrumley]

And nice to see you, even thou we are at odds over this issue.

 

[Z Man]

And nice to see you, even thou we are at odds over this issue.

Despite Scriptural evidence, you too agree with Knight that God is not in charge of disease, unless, of course, the 'victim' has done something wrong?

If that is your argument (and this goes for you too Knight), why do 'good' people get sick? While I'm on this subject, Knight says that the verses I presented only illustrate that the wicked are being punished by God in their sickness. Knight, do tell, who are the wicked? Are not all of us guilty of some form of disobediance to God? Thus, God is 'justified' in making anyone sick, correct?

But despite that argument, the basis remains that God inflicts sickness - it is through His command that people get sick, whether it's for some sort of punishment or not. You, however, believe that God only inflicts sickness if the person 'deserves' it. But you fail to show us what Job was guilty of, or the blind man in John 11, or even David's firstborn son, who, immediately after being born, was inflicted with a sickness from God and died.

It's simply irrational to believe in the Bible, yet disagree that God gives people diseases, despite their sins or not. Again, Knight and drbrumly, your argument is irrelevant unless you can prove Biblically that God does not inflict people with diseases, which is impossible, since I've proved Scripturally otherwise.

God bless, fellas.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

thelaqachisnext,

May I ask for some clarification...

What precisely are you referring to when you use the term "Church of Jesus Christ"?

Are you referring to the familiar denomination or something else? If it's something else, please specifiy what you mean.

I ask because, frankly, your post sounds a bit on the wacky side and I'm just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from on this. (No insult intended, we're all a bit on the wacky side from time to time.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't recall ever seeing a post from you before so, welcome to TOL! :up:

The one Church He is building that is made of born again (from above) Believers from every tribe and tongue and nation, whose names are recorded in heaven, who have fellowship together -no matter the name they meet under- because they "Walk in the Light, as He is in the Light, and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses them from all sin".

They may meet regularly together in large buildings that are denominational, in small buildings, in prisons, in homes, and may gather by twos, threes, or thousands, in fields, forests, or cathedrals; but they have been born again by the Holy Spirit, and are, all together, the one Church that He is building, since Pentecost.

And we've met in a thread, briefly.

The Church of God is the congregation of the LORD, His assembly, in Whom He dwells since Pentecost: pre-Pentecost, He was typed as dwelling in the Holy of Holies, which Holy of Holies was built in Jerusalem after the return of a part of the dispersed Jews, but which never had the returned Presence of glory that had departed from Solomon's temple, -in Ezekiel chapters 1-11; but the glory did come to dwell in the Church (in a measure of the promise of the full measure to come when we receive our regenerated bodies), which Church is all those born again Believers of the nation of Israel and those of the Gentiles who turn to Him.

All who are born again are added to His Church, which is the house that He is building for the Father's glory to indwell after that house is finished -which is to say, after all the stones are added that will complete it: we who are added to that Church (His house that He is building), are added 'stone by stone', one at a time, as we are born again from above through this Church age.

When all the stones are put together, that is, when all the stones have their finish -the regenerated bodies, then the glory of God (the Father's Presence in full measure), will fill the house; and then God will be 'all in all' as He was in the beginning of this present creation, before the fall.

The finished house (Church), is the Holy of Holies, seen as the City of God, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven after the regeneration of the heavens and the earth; and we who are His Church, redeemed from every tribe and tongue and nation from throughout all the ages of this present creation, are that house, that city, which is the true Holy of Holies (that the Jews had been given the type and shadow of, as an oracle of the true one), of the regenerated heaven and earth, when God and the Lamb will be the temple thereof.

 

[Poly]

Knight,
Some of the verses I posted may have been examples of God punishing people, but the truth still remains that the disease was given to them by God.

This statement is the equivilent of somebody saying,

"Sometimes there are instances of little Johnny's dad punishing him, but the truth still remains that the punishment was given to him by his dad." :dizzy:

The verses you posted show clearly that "the truth still remains that the disease was given to them by God" because the examples state clearly why He did it? They all have the same reason..... punishment for disobedience.

As Knight so painstakingly points out, you can't establish that God causes ALL diseases/afflictions using verses showing that He did it when they all have the same "theme" going. A person/nation failed to obey so they were punished.

It's been made so clear so many times for you, your willfull ignorance in refusing to see it almost causes one to be embarrassed for you.

Other examples of people being diagnosed with a disease who weren't being punished are Job, David's firstborn, and the blind guy in John 11, all of whom you failed to talk about in your critique, which doesn't surprise me.

:doh:
Well, there you have it. There are examples of people in the bible diagnosed with a disease and it wasn't because they were being punished. It's all so clear now in this evidence you've given that God causes all diseases. No wonder it doesn't surprise you that Knight wouldn't even want to touch trying to disprove this clearly established proof text. :freak:

Until you can prove that God does not give people diseases period, regardless if they were being punished or not, then your argument is moot.

Surely I'm reading this wrong.

The only way the argument can be established that God caused diseases for a specific and just reason of disobedience is to prove that He never gives people diseases at all?


This makes no sense whatsoever.