Are you born again (John 3)? Take this test.

[Lon]

Irrelevant.

Sure.

Again, Jesus' entire earthly ministry was to Israel. Unless you understand everything in that context, you'll continue to confuse what He means.

Attempting to falsely accuse?

No, it was a question. I'm trying to understand why that particular context. It would seem (yes? no?) that Jesus wanted to bring gentiles into the picture of His redemption. Perhaps entertain the Mid Acts position: How would gentiles have been included if Israel had accepted their Messiah? Did He have to die on the cross if Israel accepted Him?

Everyone must have a spiritual birth. That is not the point.

The kingdom of God that Jesus spoke about was an earthly kingdom.... it was the kingdom of Israel with Jesus as its King. That is when THEIR new covenant will allow them to keep the law, etc.

No, born again is referring to Israel's rebirth as a spiritual nation.

It's worth noting that the KJV is superior to many modern English translation in that it makes clear the difference between SINGULAR and PLURAL. Thee and thou are SINGULAR, Ye and you are PLURAL.

So look carefully at what Jesus said:

John 3:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

He's speaking to Nicodemus SINGULARLY but He's speaking about him in the PLURAL (not just Nicodemus).

Okay, makes sense why Mid Acts goes that direction but what does Mid Acts do with 'the world' in context? And thank you for jumping in. Appreciate the conversation.

 

[Nick M]

It would seem (yes? no?) that Jesus wanted to bring gentiles into the picture of His redemption.

That requires ignoring everything in the "Old Testament" where Israel is established as Gods' people. And his own testimony. A gentile had to first bless Israel and convert.

 

[Lon]

That requires ignoring everything in the "Old Testament" where Israel is established as Gods' people. And his own testimony. A gentile had to first bless Israel and convert.

What was the purpose of Jesus saying 'God so loved the world?' by Mid Acts understanding? Appreciate your thread, ty.

 

[Right Divider]

No, it was a question. I'm trying to understand why that particular context.

That is the context of His earthly ministry. It's just that simple.

It would seem (yes? no?) that Jesus wanted to bring gentiles into the picture of His redemption.

That was not what Jesus was talking about in that passage.

How's this for "wanting to bring gentiles into the picture of His redemption"?

​

Matt 15:21-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:21) ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. (15:22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. (15:23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. (15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (15:25) Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. (15:26) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. (15:27) And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. (15:28) Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​

​

It was not until she humbled herself (as a gentiles) and elevated Israel that Jesus would even talk to her.

Perhaps entertain the Mid Acts position: How would gentiles have been included if Israel had accepted their Messiah? Did He have to die on the cross if Israel accepted Him?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But that was not made known during His earthly ministry. That was why He called Paul, years later.

Okay, makes sense why Mid Acts goes that direction but what does Mid Acts do with 'the world' in context? And thank you for jumping in. Appreciate the conversation.

Under Jesus' earthly program it was Israel first and gentiles second. Gentiles were to bless Israel and be blessed in return. Like this:

Rev 21:24-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

 

[Lon]

That is the context of His earthly ministry. It's just that simple.

That was not what Jesus was talking about in that passage.

How's this for "wanting to bring gentiles into the picture of His redemption"?

​

Matt 15:21-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:21) ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. (15:22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. (15:23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. (15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (15:25) Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. (15:26) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. (15:27) And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. (15:28) Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​

​

It was not until she humbled herself (as a gentiles) and elevated Israel that Jesus would even talk to her.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But that was not made know during His earthly ministry. That was why He called Paul, years later.

2nd Acts Dispensationalists, if I remember that class, believe that many of Jesus' statements had broader context. I believe they took 'whole world' to mean His work on the cross in scope.

Under Jesus' earthly program it was Israel first and gentiles second. Gentiles were to bless Israel and be blessed in return. Like this:

Rev 21:24-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

Thank you. I am not quite Mid Acts, but greatly appreciate the perspective and, as much as it leads to looking at these scriptures. Thanks.

 

[Right Divider]

2nd Acts Dispensationalists, if I remember that class, believe that many of Jesus' statements had broader context. I believe they took 'whole world' to mean His work on the cross in scope.

Acts 2 dispensationalists are very inconsistent in their interpretation of scripture. They try to force the scripture into their ideas instead of letting it speak for itself. They also read TONS of stuff back into the past. In other words, their timeline is way out of wack (as are most positions that are not Mid-Acts).

 

[Nick M]

What was the purpose of Jesus saying 'God so loved the world?'

It means what it says. So we can go back and see it. It does not invalidate the things the Lord Jesus Christ said elsewhere in John or the other 3 gospels. Not one jot or tittle of the law will pass until the earth. When the body departs, the Law of Moses will come back. A secular Jew is the anti-Christ. I hate to break it some of you, it isn't Mikhail Gorbachev. He will make a peace pact with Israel and rebuild the temple.

 

[Lon]

It means what it says. So we can go back and see it. It does not invalidate the things the Lord Jesus Christ said elsewhere in John or the other 3 gospels. Not one jot or tittle of the law will pass until the earth. When the body departs, the Law of Moses will come back. A secular Jew is the anti-Christ. I hate to break it some of you, it isn't Mikhail Gorbachev. He will make a peace pact with Israel and rebuild the temple.

Makes sense. Thank you and good thread, Nick.

 

[Nick M]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I learned on TOL through the decades the strategy of the enemy. Just claim it doesn't mean what it says. There is no other recourse. While the subject is up, born of the water is born from your mother. Not water baptism.

 

[marke]

Are you born again IAW what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Verse 8? Demonstrate it for us. I'll wait.

I believe the Lord saved me in 1971. I cannot prove to you that I am saved.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

I believe the Lord saved me in 1971. I cannot prove to you that I am saved.

So he didn't save you at the moment he died on the cross and came back ?

 

[Idolater]

What does it mean to be born of water, in context?

Spoiler

can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Does it only mean, born in the natural way, meaning just being born itself, is that being born of water? or does being born of water mean something else here, in context?

Spoiler

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Can you be born of the Spirit, WITHOUT being born of water?

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I learned on TOL through the decades the strategy of the enemy. Just claim it doesn't mean what it says. There is no other recourse. While the subject is up, born of the water is born from your mother. Not water baptism.

Thank you.

What do you think about this below?

EDITED TO ADD

Is being born again, and being born by the Word, and being born of the Spirit, all the same thing?

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Is being born again, and being born by the Word, and being born of the Spirit, all the same thing?

 

[marke]

So he didn't save you at the moment he died on the cross and came back ?

The Lord told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again, meaning being born again takes place during a sinner's lifetime, not in the future or past. Abraham believed God and was chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, but Abraham was born a sinner and he did not get born again in life before he believed God.

 

[Right Divider]

The Lord told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again, meaning being born again takes place during a sinner's lifetime, not in the future or past.

Jesus told Nicodemus that THEY needed to be born again.

From a previous post of mine: https://theologyonline.com/threads/are-you-born-again-john-3-take-this-test.60689/post-1911058

So look carefully at what Jesus said:

John 3:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

He's speaking to Nicodemus SINGULARLY but He's speaking about him in the PLURAL (not just Nicodemus).

The YE is PLURAL, so it's not just talking about one individual.

 

[marke]

Jesus told Nicodemus that THEY needed to be born again.

From a previous post of mine: https://theologyonline.com/threads/are-you-born-again-john-3-take-this-test.60689/post-1911058


The YE is PLURAL, so it's not just talking about one individual.

OK. So, does my point stand that sinners must be born again on earth before they die and are not born again before they are born?

 

[Right Divider]

OK. So, does my point stand that sinners must be born again on earth before they die and are not born again before they are born?

The phrase "born again" does not really apply to the body of Christ.
It's a term related to the nation of Israel. It was mentioned many times in prophecy. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he should have already known about it.

John 3:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ​

​

The new creature (the body of Christ) is NOT a "reborn creature".

 

[marke]

The phrase "born again" does not really apply to the body of Christ.
It's a term related to the nation of Israel. It was mentioned many times in prophecy. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he should have already known about it.

John 3:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ​

​

The new creature (the body of Christ) is NOT a "reborn creature".

I don't totally follow you. I believe Christians are born of the Spirit, but not from birth.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't totally follow you. I believe Christians are born of the Spirit, but not from birth.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John was not writing to you.
John is one of twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
John (and the other apostles to Israel) agreed to keep their ministry to ONLY the circumcision (i.e., Israel).

 

[marke]

John was not writing to you.
John is one of twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
John (and the other apostles to Israel) agreed to keep their ministry to ONLY the circumcision (i.e., Israel).

John wrote to the church, one of the leaders of which was Diotrephes. John spoke of the elect and the world. He never said anything about a third division, composed of born-again Jews that were supposedly separate from the Christians and the Christian church.

 

[Right Divider]

John wrote to the church, one of the leaders of which was Diotrephes.

John was one of the TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. John was not writing to the church which is His body... the body of Christ.

I'm not sure what Diotrephes has to do with anything, but he was an unbeliever that opposed John and the twelve.

3John 1:9-10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:9) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. (1:10) Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.​

John spoke of the elect and the world.

John spoke to the elect NATION, the nation of Israel.

He never said anything about a third division, composed of born-again Jews that were supposedly separate from the Christians and the Christian church.

The term "Christians" is a bit vague and does not accurately describe the divisions that God put in His plans. The "Christian church" for today is the BODY OF CHRIST and not the nation of Israel.

Yours is the confusion that comes when you do not rightly divide the word of truth.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

That is a division that God created.