glorydaz
Well-known member
I did read it.
ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
I did read it.
Iconoclast85
New member
All men are spiritually dead at conception.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Did your spiritualist tell you that?
dodge
New member
Nah, that is what scripture actually teaches ! Not that you can understand scripture.
Hi dodge... could you please quote the verses you support this with. I'll gladly yield to scripture.
All I need is the one that says we are "born spiritually dead".
- EE
Here [MENTION=8957]dodge[/MENTION],
I drudged up a bunch about spiritual death... but the funny thing is that they all insinuate that we all "die" according to our own trespasses and sins. Not to beat a :deadhorse: but doesn't this again imply as Jerry keeps iterating that we have to be "Spiritually Alive", before we can "Spiritually Die"?
It's almost as if God expects some "personal" accountability, instead of... I did it because I had to. But maybe that's just me. IDK
Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."
Luke 9:60
But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Luke 15:24
for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:32
'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Hosea 13:1
When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling He exalted himself in Israel, But through Baal he did wrong and died.
Romans 7:8
But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
Romans 7:10
and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jeremiah 21:8
"You shall also say to this people, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.
Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
I drudged up a bunch about spiritual death... but the funny thing is that they all insinuate that we all "die" according to our own trespasses and sins. Not to beat a :deadhorse: but doesn't this again imply as Jerry keeps iterating that we have to be "Spiritually Alive", before we can "Spiritually Die"?
It's almost as if God expects some "personal" accountability, instead of... I did it because I had to. But maybe that's just me. IDK
Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."
Luke 9:60
But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Luke 15:24
for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:32
'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Hosea 13:1
When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling He exalted himself in Israel, But through Baal he did wrong and died.
Romans 7:8
But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
Romans 7:10
and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jeremiah 21:8
"You shall also say to this people, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.
Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
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glorydaz
Well-known member
The human nature God created us with is susceptible to the lusts of the flesh, because we have a physical body. We have eyes with which we see, so we are susceptible to the lusts of the eyes. We have an intellect and self-awareness, so we are susceptible to the pride of life. We choose to follow those lusts because we have free will, and discover by fulfilling those lusts we can satisfy our immediate desires.
That doesn't mean we are sinful by nature, because we know we can "do by nature" those things contained in the law, as well. Rom. 2:14
But, you're correct, we will sin "soon enough"...just as Adam and Eve did. There are remedies for that, however, as God has made clear.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then you should have no problem citing chapter and verse.
opcorn:
Only One is GOOD. We are not God. To say that we have a "sin nature" and then gloss over that Adam and Eve represent "Pristine" nature, but yielded to the Devil's wiles shows that only God can be challenged in any possible way and ARISE Sinless without a single stumble or fall.
God, alone, is GOOD.
He said so HIMSELF. Good teacher... "Why do you call Me GOOD... Only GOD is GOOD."
I already gave it to you. But, he is not accounting our trespasses to us. God has reconciled us to him at the cross. We need not concern ourselves with such a thing.
I agree with most of what you have said and I am headed that direction in my OP, but personal accountability before God has been written out of doctrine that yields a limiting of grace.
Which verse shows that we are "born" spiritually dead ... Again? And what is it's context?
You don't even believe Adam's sin was imputed to us, but the very judgment that comes from the law... if I remember correctly. Are you just playing the "Devil's" advocate? If you are... you're doing a good job!
I still like you Nick M., but your almost as stubborn as me!?!
glorydaz
Well-known member
I didn't see it.
Oy and vey! :chuckle:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
dodge
New member
Makes no difference because scripture also says:
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The only reason Jesus did not have an earthly father was to break the sin "nature" passed down from Adam to ALL of his progeny.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Those verses certainly don't say man is born spiritually dead. You can put them up there a hundred times and they still don't say it. I see "many were made sinners" by one man's disobedience, but even that doesn't say they were born sinners or born spiritually dead. This is exactly the same thing I see the Calvinists doing.
So, Oy and vey yourself.
dodge
New member
and then :
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
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glorydaz
Well-known member
There you go....ripping a verse out of context. Follow the dots, Dodge. Your "proof text" doesn't prove what you're claiming. It is talking about physical death of the body and resurrection of the body.
1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Cor. 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
There is a natural body and a spiritual body. You need to do some dot connecting instead of just preaching dot connecting.
1 Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Cor. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Cor. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
dodge
New member
The verse was NOT taken out of context YOU just don't want it to be true ,because it destroys the lie that man is not born spiritually dead.
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?