ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Nick M]

I didn't see it.

Romans 5. Through one man's act, judgment came to all resulting in condemnation. You can't make that say something else. It is death. We are already reconciled to God and he is not counting that nor our trespasses against us. But one is not saved until they receive his life. That happens when we believe.

 

[glorydaz]

Psa 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It does not get any plainer than this.

sa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Those 2 verse covers everyone except Adam and Eve ! Both were not born of an earthly father.

Yep, and here we see an example of the "proofs" of man being born in sin and born spiritually dead. From this kind of "reading" we get Total Depravity and Original Sin...they go hand in hand.



Oh dear....what to believe.

Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.​

It's a wonder we don't have more such horrible doctrines based upon this kind of "sound doctrine".



From this one we see the roots of the "elect". God choosing some for salvation and rejecting others according to His sovereign will. The Puppet Master at work.

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

 

[dodge]

Those verses certainly don't say man is born spiritually dead. You can put them up there a hundred times and they still don't say it. I see "many were made sinners" by one man's disobedience, but even that doesn't say they were born sinners or born spiritually dead. This is exactly the same thing I see the Calvinists doing.

So, Oy and vey yourself.

Your getting better and better at denying scripture.

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 5. Through one man's act, judgment came to all resulting in condemnation. You can't make that say something else. It is death. We are already reconciled to God and he is not counting that nor our trespasses against us. But one is not saved until they receive his life. That happens when we believe.

What condemnation? What death? I don't believe I'm making it say "something else". I think it does say something else. Judgment, condemnation, and even death don't just have one meaning. The serpent was condemned to crawling on his belly....




And who says we weren't created and formed in the womb believing?

Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God,....

 

[Danoh]

Makes no difference because scripture also says:

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The only reason Jesus did not have an earthly father was to break the sin "nature" passed down from Adam to ALL of his progeny.

Yep - it takes two to dance that sin death Tango :thumb:

 

[Nang]

Yep, and here we see an example of the "proofs" of man being born in sin and born spiritually dead. From this kind of "reading" we get Total Depravity and Original Sin...they go hand in hand.

Indeed.

Oh dear....what to believe.

Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.​

It's a wonder we don't have more such horrible doctrines based upon this kind of "sound doctrine".

You are denying Truth, Scripture, and the will of God.

From this one we see the roots of the "elect". God choosing some for salvation and rejecting others according to His sovereign will. The Puppet Master at work.

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

Truth. God's Truth. God's will and word.

God is Sovereign, but you deny Him His attributes of power, wisdom, and might.

You evidence no fear of God at all.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5. Through one man's act, judgment came to all resulting in condemnation. You can't make that say something else.

In order to understand that verse you must back up to this verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" then "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not. Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

"All men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually before they sinned. After all, no one can die spiritually unless they are first alive spiritually. Therefore, all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

That alone destroys the myth of Original Sin.

 

[Nick M]

What condemnation? What death?

From the Bible, what is the judgment of sin? The second part of Romans 5:18 shows the other side of the coin, which is life. A free gift because we are dead with out him.

 

[dodge]

"All men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually before they sinned. After all, no one can die spiritually unless they are first alive spiritually. Therefore, all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

That alone destroys the myth of Original Sin.

Wrong again Jerry !


Psa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Danoh]

"All men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually before they sinned. After all, no one can die spiritually unless they are first alive spiritually. Therefore, all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

That alone destroys the myth of Original Sin.

Nope.

The verses interpret one another.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It does not say because they sin, but because all have...in Adam.

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Death passed upon (the) all men because by (the) transgression of (the) one (the) many were made (the) sin of (the) one, or sinners.

The all were the many that were made the sin by the trangression of the one.

Thus, why the need for this...

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Was He made sin because He sinned?

God forbid!

Rather...

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Greek the actual Greek text, if that'll help, bro.

The actual passages - not - a word here and there.

"The" uh - lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nope.

The verses interpret one another.

read my post #347 if you are really interested in how the verses interpret one another.

 

[glorydaz]

From the Bible, what is the judgment of sin? The second part of Romans 5:18 shows the other side of the coin, which is life. A free gift because we are dead with out him.

Well, the "wages" of sin is death. That alone tells you it is earned.



Paul tell us "through the offence of one many be dead". Don't words matter?

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

We see the same here...many were made sinners by one man's disobedience. Those words matter to me.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Wrong again Jerry !

Psa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Pasams 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

If you want the truth from David's writings then consider what he wrote here and there is no reason to suppose what he wrote is not to be taken literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Are we supposed to believe that a person is wonderfully made even though he is made spiritually dead? Of course not. This is what the Lord Jesus said about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we supposed to believe that these little children were dead spiritually but the Lord said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them?

 

[glorydaz]

It does not say because they sin, but because all have...in Adam.

There you go....making things up as you go along.

You can't simply steal from one portion of scripture to support another when the former has nothing to do with the latter.

 

[glorydaz]

Wrong again Jerry !


Psa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Okay, you have now officially become as annoying as God's unTruth. :troll:

 

[glorydaz]

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Pasams 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

If you want the truth from David's writings then consider what he wrote here and there is no reason to suppose what he wrote is not to be taken literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Are we supposed to believe that a person is wonderfully made even though he is made spiritually dead? Of course not. This is what the Lord Jesus said about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we supposed to believe that these little children were dead spiritually but the Lord said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them?

:first:

 

[Danoh]

read my post #347 if you are really interested in how the verses interpret one another.

A thought for future reference, bro.

Some people post from their phone; the post numbers may not be available to them, as a result.

You might post the link with said reference.

But no, I read your post #347, and no, I do not agree.

It was not the Law that was written in their hearts. Rather, the WORK of the Law of God.

Israel was merely made conscious of said WORK of the Law of God.

Which refers to a generic principle made specific with Moses.

Just as the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ are generic phrases.

God's good news concerning His Son: the gospel of Christ.

Generic phrasing that the particular context then determines which aspect of said good news - that aspect which was prophesied (Christ to Israel as King of Israel over the Earth), or that aspect which was kept secret (Christ to principalities and powers in the Heavenlies as Head of A New Creature: The Body; over said Heavenlies) since the times of the ages until Paul.

Might as well Greek these things, as too many are taking too much too literal.

Likewise with the WORK of THE LAW of God.

 

[Danoh]

There you go....making things up as you go along.

You can't simply steal from one portion of scripture to support another when the former has nothing to do with the latter.

Lol - exactly what I've been pointing out to you 9/28 Hybrids as supposed "MADs" :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Lol - exactly what I've been pointing out to you 9/28 Hybrids as supposed "MADs" :chuckle:

You're just an idiot trying to hide behind some false bravado. But, I can see you......