Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Rosenritter]

That is about no one ascended in BODILY form.

Because in the context of John 3:13, Jesus had descended from heaven in bodily form? No, GT, sorry.

John 3:12-13 KJV
(12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus plainly means ascending in any fashion whatsoever, as the context is being able to provide witness of heaven and heavenly things. Jesus provides witness not because he descended in bodily form, but because he came from and existed within heaven itself. Man provides no witness because he has never ascended to heaven in any form that can provide such witness.

Your interpretation fights against the previous verse.

 

[Rosenritter]

Rosenritter says our spirits cease to exist after the death of our physical bodies.

You have agreed with Rosenritter many times after he/she said that.

The spirit cannot die.

You both have expressed the belief of the doctrine of death, and you both have argued against the spirit of humans living on in consciousness after the death of the physical body.

That (above) would be an example of GT being less than accurate (or untruthful) about what someone else has said. Not that she's very accurate or careful about much, it seems.

 

[God's Truth]

That (above) would be an example of GT being less than accurate (or untruthful) about what someone else has said. Not that she's very accurate or careful about much, it seems.

Instead of slandering me, why don't you try to explain then what you believe?

You have been going against the spirits of humans living on after the death of the flesh.

You go against all the scriptures I have been giving that prove our spirits live on.

You even go against Enoch living on.

Have you forgotten? lol

I think you are trying to be confusing now.

 

[God's Truth]

Because in the context of John 3:13, Jesus had descended from heaven in bodily form? No, GT, sorry.

What?
What in the world are you talking about? Are you sure you are not EvilEye? You both have the same kind of spirit and show the exact types of confusion.

Only Jesus who came from heaven is the one going to heaven in bodily form.

John 3:12-13 KJV
(12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus plainly means ascending in any fashion whatsoever, as the context is being able to provide witness of heaven and heavenly things. Jesus provides witness not because he descended in bodily form, but because he came from and existed within heaven itself. Man provides no witness because he has never ascended to heaven in any form that can provide such witness.

Your interpretation fights against the previous verse.

Show where I said Jesus came from heaven in bodily form. Show it now or admit that you make up things that aren't there.

 

[popsthebuilder]

How do you answer the direct statement from Paul in that same chapter where he picks five examples of people that all died, Enoch being one of them? Why did he pick Enoch for his list? I'm not seeing where you're actually addressing the points raised (in the hidden or spoiler portions).

You should be able to notice the word "but" denoting a difference.

Hebrews: 11. 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Perhaps I am wrong but there seems to be a division made between Enoch and others mentioned after him in the list of five you mentioned. Enoch is not of of those five.

I'm having trouble finding where it says Enoch died. Could you reference it please.

 

[Lon]

1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV
(13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

So, they already rose first, right? How could they come 'with' Him if they soul-slept?
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Sleep here has to mean died, not sleeping until His return else how could God 'bring' them 'with Him?' (also a great triune verse).

Acts 7:55,56 Stephen saw the Lord Jesus Christ, ready to receive him immediately. Soul sleep would have been a cruel untruth, especially if metaphor or untrue. It cannot possibly have been untrue. Paul says in Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 that to be absent from the body, is immediately to be present with the Lord.

When Jesus arose, the saints arose with Him. Matthew 27:52 Acts 1:11 says in that same way, with the host of saints, they will be with Him when He returns.
1 Thessalonians 4 then, means the dead did and do rise first, by clarity.

Hebrews 12:1 We 'have' a cloud of witnesses (and some of them just mentioned and whom Paul is referring to, so human saints). Psalm 16:10

 

[popsthebuilder]

How do you answer the direct statement from Paul in that same chapter where he picks five examples of people that all died, Enoch being one of them? Why did he pick Enoch for his list? I'm not seeing where you're actually addressing the points raised (in the hidden or spoiler portions).

Let's review.

Pick the one verse that doesn't belong in the set;

Genesis: 5. 5. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

8. And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

11. And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

14. And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.

17. And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.

20. And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
27. And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
31. And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

(it's number 24)

Interesting number too.

Let's continue

Hebrews: 11. 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews: 11. 40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Last verse is a reference to the end times when GOD is all in all.

 

[popsthebuilder]

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews (9:27)

Why did Enoch not die? Even Jesus died.

You would have to ask GOD I suppose, not that I would advise it exactly.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Are you kidding? You have been thanking people who say we do not go to heaven after the death of our bodies. You have been publicly agreeing with them.


Well where do you think our spirits go then?


You are not going to accuse me about what?



You still are being vague. Why are you deliberately trying to be confusing?

You know where that comes from, right?

Watch how simple it is:

I believe when we die physically, we go to either heaven or prison/hell.

I can thank a post without agreeing with it word for word. There is no rule against thanking what I want to thank. I have actually been known to thank things I know to be completely wrong due to presentation alone.

I will ask you to read what I do plainly say and not assume what I never stated....please.

All die. That is my belief.

The spirit or soul of an actual believer is resurrected from death; that too is a belief I hold without contradicting my previous statement.

Now. Please ask about what else I am being vague with as opposed to assuming things.

I am not being intentionally vague.

I have only been reading scripture for a couple years now and though my familiarity with the general theme is very sound, I have no level of rehearsed memory of said scripture such as you do.

I attempt to be careful not to make conjecture based on idle fancies, and do attempt to base my words on what I do actually know; so being slightly ignorant may come off as being intentionally vague.

Scripture says all will die.

It too says all we be ressurected unto judgement.

I hadn't noticed that I denied either of those things. Perhaps you could show where I did as opposed to making up whole nonexistent scenarios where I actually say things other than thanks with my thanks.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Rosenritter says our spirits cease to exist after the death of our physical bodies.

You have agreed with Rosenritter many times after he/she said that.

The spirit cannot die.

You both have expressed the belief of the doctrine of death, and you both have argued against the spirit of humans living on in consciousness after the death of the physical body.

Show me here and now the scriptures that state plainly that we will be instantly brought to heaven upon physical death and too retain all memories and consciousness of physical life.

I'll wait.

It is a very sad day

 

[jamie]

You would have to ask GOD I suppose, not that I would advise it exactly.

Wrong answer, we all must die once and then be judged.

 

[God's Truth]

I can thank a post without agreeing with it word for word. There is no rule against thanking what I want to thank. I have actually been known to thank things I know to be completely wrong due to presentation alone.

That is somewhat confusing, but okay.

I will ask you to read what I do plainly say and not assume what I never stated....please.

That is what I have been doing. You assumed I didn't.

All die. That is my belief.

The spirit or soul of an actual believer is resurrected from death; that too is a belief I hold without contradicting my previous statement.

Now. Please ask about what else I am being vague with as opposed to assuming things.

I am not being intentionally vague.

I have only been reading scripture for a couple years now and though my familiarity with the general theme is very sound, I have no level of rehearsed memory of said scripture such as you do.

I attempt to be careful not to make conjecture based on idle fancies, and do attempt to base my words on what I do actually know; so being slightly ignorant may come off as being intentionally vague.

You have stated that you don't know what you believe about it for sure, but you have expressed that you do not believe we live on in consciousness after the death of our bodies.

Now I am not going to go search the posts where you said and did that. If you want to clarify now that you do or don't believe that, then please do so now.

Scripture says all will die.

It too says all we be ressurected unto judgement.

I hadn't noticed that I denied either of those things. Perhaps you could show where I did as opposed to making up whole nonexistent scenarios where I actually say things other than thanks with my thanks.

I did not only speak about you giving thanks to people who believe in soul sleep.
That is something nonexistent.

Again, make it clear now what you believe instead of claiming you didn't say it.

Say it what you believe instead of trying to be insulting to me.

 

[God's Truth]

Show me here and now the scriptures that state plainly that we will be instantly brought to heaven upon physical death and too retain all memories and consciousness of physical life.

I'll wait.

It is a very sad day

Are you okay? You just went against me and tried to scold me for saying you say what you just did!

 

[Rosenritter]

Instead of slandering me, why don't you try to explain then what you believe?

May I interpret that as you just asked what I believe? That's a step in the right direction then.

You have been going against the spirits of humans living on after the death of the flesh.

Surprisingly, you are correct so far.

You go against all the scriptures I have been giving that prove our spirits live on.

I've yet to see you present such a scripture.

You even go against Enoch living on.

While I do agree that Enoch is dead, and not alive, that hasn't been the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is whether Enoch is alive and in heaven, and as such, we have only really concerned ourselves whether Enoch is in living in heaven.

Have you forgotten? lol

I think you are trying to be confusing now.

I think you have confused yourself, demonstrating what I meant with the reference to "less than accurate (or untruthful)." Here's the statement you made, of which you failed to provide support in that "rebuttal" of yours:

Rosenritter says our spirits cease to exist after the death of our physical bodies.

You have agreed with Rosenritter many times after he/she said that.

I have not said that our spirit ceases to exist upon death. I have said that our spirit returns to God who gave it, and if you wish to argue with that, you are arguing against those precise words as they occur in scripture. What I have also said is that our spirit has no functionality or consciousness except as part of our whole. There is a difference between "no function' and "ceases to exist" which I assume is within your understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

As the spirit is the breath of God that gives life to all things, this properly belongs to God and thus returns to him. It is not a floating "ghost" that has consciousness in itself. In the aspect that we may have other components of spirit (not material) neither do these have their own consciousness nor are they referred to as "being" the man.

Assuming you were hasty and wrote / responded without reading for comprehension, then perhaps my less harsh "less than accurate" charge is applicable. Taking your typical response style into consideration, I'm inclined to assume on the side of generosity.

 

[God's Truth]

I can thank a post without agreeing with it word for word. There is no rule against thanking what I want to thank. I have actually been known to thank things I know to be completely wrong due to presentation alone.

I will ask you to read what I do plainly say and not assume what I never stated....please.

All die. That is my belief.

The spirit or soul of an actual believer is resurrected from death; that too is a belief I hold without contradicting my previous statement.

Now. Please ask about what else I am being vague with as opposed to assuming things.

I am not being intentionally vague.

I have only been reading scripture for a couple years now and though my familiarity with the general theme is very sound, I have no level of rehearsed memory of said scripture such as you do.

I attempt to be careful not to make conjecture based on idle fancies, and do attempt to base my words on what I do actually know; so being slightly ignorant may come off as being intentionally vague.

Scripture says all will die.

It too says all we be ressurected unto judgement.

I hadn't noticed that I denied either of those things. Perhaps you could show where I did as opposed to making up whole nonexistent scenarios where I actually say things other than thanks with my thanks.

I didn't have to wait long for you to repeat what you said you didn't say.

Here it is again your statement about how we do not go to heaven or hell after the death of our bodies:

Show me here and now the scriptures that state plainly that we will be instantly brought to heaven upon physical death and too retain all memories and consciousness of physical life.

I'll wait.

It is a very sad day

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Readers may be surprised to know that the saints come down from the heaven of the earths clouds at Armageddon, and not from the third Heaven.

Fact is, that Christ returns from the third Heaven to the earths clouds (with the clouds of heaven)to raise the saints from the dead to the air, for He has said--

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Nothing is said about returning to the third Heaven.

Zech ch 12 tells us that following the resurrection the saints go to Jerusalem to support the true believers there.

It is only presumed that all believers will be in the first resurrection.

LA

 

[popsthebuilder]

Wrong answer, we all must die once and then be judged.

You are knowingly going against scripture in favor of your own opinion.

I have no opinion on Enoch. Only what is plainly stated.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That is somewhat confusing, but okay.


That is what I have been doing. You assumed I didn't.

You have stated that you don't know what you believe about it for sure, but you have expressed that you do not believe we live on in consciousness after the death of our bodies.

Now I am not going to go search the posts where you said and did that. If you want to clarify now that you do or don't believe that, then please do so now.



I did not only speak about you giving thanks to people who believe in soul sleep.
That is something nonexistent.

Again, make it clear now what you believe instead of claiming you didn't say it.

Say it what you believe instead of trying to be insulting to me.

I said what I believe. I may have come off in a defensive tone for good reason.

I believe all will experience death.

I believe all will be resurrected and judged.

That is the extent of what I know on the subject without adding conjecture.

I do not know what soul sleep is.

I do not know where our spirits reside in death, buy do not believe we instantly go to heaven due to scripture.

Now.

Please do as I asked and show scripture that said we instantly go to heaven upon death, and too that we retain our memories, consciousness, and sense of self upon our instantanious transmission into heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

Only Jesus who came from heaven is the one going to heaven in bodily form.

Show where I said Jesus came from heaven in bodily form. Show it now or admit that you make up things that aren't there.

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of what you say. In your effort to escape the clear statement of Jesus in John 3:13 that "no man has ascended to heaven" you attempted to qualify his statement, that he forgot to use the disclaimer "ascended to heaven in bodily form."

John 3:12-13 KJV
(12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Your first error is in that in attempting to limit verse 13 to "no man hath ascended to heaven in bodily form" your reading would also demand the same qualification to the second part, to become "but he that came down from heaven in bodily form" which then also requires the same qualification in the latter part, "even the Son of man which is in heaven in bodily form."

It seems that you aren't thinking through the meaning of your words before you say them. It rather seems that it's more important for you to defend your prior beliefs rather than to allow the scripture to speak for itself.

Regardless, Jesus has preemptively stopped you here, as verse 12 clarifies that this statement is in the context of bearing witness of heavenly things. Jesus can bear witness of heavenly things because he has been there. As such, the question of "only in the body" is irrelevant, as this encompasses any possible form that can observe heavenly things. Jesus did not need to bodily ascend to heaven to bear witness...

... and if men could ascend to heaven in any form, Christ's statement would be reduced to meaninglessness. The only way his statement has any meaning is if man has not ascended in any meaningful conscious form.

I'd ask you to think carefully before you answer, but we both know that would be a wasted request... *sigh*

 

[God's Truth]

May I interpret that as you just asked what I believe? That's a step in the right direction then.



Surprisingly, you are correct so far.



I've yet to see you present such a scripture.



While I do agree that Enoch is dead, and not alive, that hasn't been the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is whether Enoch is alive and in heaven, and as such, we have only really concerned ourselves whether Enoch is in living in heaven.



I think you have confused yourself, demonstrating what I meant with the reference to "less than accurate (or untruthful)." Here's the statement you made, of which you failed to provide support in that "rebuttal" of yours:



I have not said that our spirit ceases to exist upon death. I have said that our spirit returns to God who gave it, and if you wish to argue with that, you are arguing against those precise words as they occur in scripture. What I have also said is that our spirit has no functionality or consciousness except as part of our whole. There is a difference between "no function' and "ceases to exist" which I assume is within your understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

As the spirit is the breath of God that gives life to all things, this properly belongs to God and thus returns to him. It is not a floating "ghost" that has consciousness in itself. In the aspect that we may have other components of spirit (not material) neither do these have their own consciousness nor are they referred to as "being" the man.

Assuming you were hasty and wrote / responded without reading for comprehension, then perhaps my less harsh "less than accurate" charge is applicable. Taking your typical response style into consideration, I'm inclined to assume on the side of generosity.

You saying this proves you are confused: "While I do agree that Enoch is dead, and not alive, that hasn't been the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is whether Enoch is alive and in heaven, and as such, we have only really concerned ourselves whether Enoch is in living in heaven."


You think Enoch is dead and not alive but the discussion is not that but rather it is about whether Enoch is alive and in heaven. Are you kidding? You are a confused mess, IMHO. Can you really not see the confusion you just said?

I have been saying and proving with scripture that Enoch is alive in heaven. He is a spirit in heaven. His spirit is in heaven living in consciousness.