God's Truth
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The scripture says WHO they are and they are not clothing! The scripture says plainly that it is about those who did not receive the promise while they lived.
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
- Thread starter patrick jane
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God's Truth
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The Spirit, water, and the blood is about the SPIRIT.
God's Truth
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It isn’t a metaphor, it is spiritual. It is what the scripture says, but you demean it.
The scripture PLAINLY says you have come to HEAVEN where the spirits of righteous men made perfect!
If you are not Evil Eye, are you Lon?
Prove it.
God's Truth
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Rosenritter and popsthebuilder,
Do you believe Jesus went to prison/hell after he died on the cross? Yes or no.
Do you believe Jesus went to prison/hell after he died on the cross? Yes or no.
Rosenritter
New member
Thank you for granting that the passage does say that Enoch died. Yes, I would agree that it does mean that they no longer existed on the earth, not having received the promises (and I understand that what you mean).
With that agreed upon, may we talk about the next part then? What are the promises? And why would Paul say that they died, not having received the promises, if they had already received the promises at the time he was speaking?
Titus 1:1-2 KJV
(1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 John 2:25 KJV
(25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
We can go a bit further here, as Paul continues to tell us that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sara also... still have not arrived at their heavenly country.
Hebrews 11:16 KJV
(16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
If they already had this better country, they would not be said desire it, as they would have it as a possession. Paul comes back to this theme after some elaboration, and reiterates that they received not the promises, but that we would be perfected together, not apart from each other.
Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This agrees with the promise of eternal life, promised before the world began, realized through the resurrection of the dead, at the last day, all together, with the trumpet and the voice of the archangel, yet not before.
Consider the symbolism of the figures we are given and the parables:
1. When the walls of Jericho fell down, it they come down in a trickle, or all at once with the combined trumpet blast?
2. When Jesus returns from the far country, having received the kingdom, does he then bring his reward to his faithful servants, or was he slowly sending lucky lottery winners prizes in advance?
3. When we are told of the marriage of the bride and the Lamb, is this an all-at-once spotless bride and shining groom event, or is this better likened to "living together" for some many years before finally agreeing to "tie the knot?"
God's Truth
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Good grief.
You do exactly what you falsely accused me of doing.
You don't even consider what others say, you just keep repeating yourself.
Rosenritter
New member
Yes, even as stated in the Apostle's Creed. However, I suspect that your idea of hell may differ in this regard, and as such, you may wish to clarify before running ahead on this point. I'm using the same definition as Peter used on the day of Pentecost in Acts.
God's Truth
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I have been stating my beliefs on this and with scripture.
Go ahead and explain your beliefs.
Just to refresh you, Jesus died and went in his Spirit to prison/HELL where he preached the gospel there.
Your turn.
Rosenritter
New member
Seriously, GT ? You don't understand the use and/or meaning of metaphor, and want this proven that this is metaphor?
Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
(22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Mount Sion.
The city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.
A huge company of angels.
The general assembly and church.
God.
The resurrected and perfected spirits of the saints.
Jesus.
... and the blood of the sprinkling.
Unless you are prepared to argue and maintain that one literally comes into the sprinkled blood of the sacrifices of oxen and goats and sheep, for it was these of whose blood that were literally sprinkled, then it is sufficiently admitted and proven that this passage is spoken in metaphor. If one element is proven metaphorical, then the passage is metaphorical.
If you maintain that you have literally come into literal blood of sprinkled sacrifices, then show us the literal blood. Otherwise, please make an honorable admission that this passage, at least, is metaphorical.
How am I supposed to prove that if I am not Evil Eye, that I must therefore be Lon? That's an absurd assertion on your part. Regardless, why would we post against each other if we were the same person? Not everyone has as much time as you for these boards.
God's Truth
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Scripture is spiritual.
Are you really going to deny that?
Believe what is written.
Why are you bringing up oxen and goats and sheep? The blood is Jesus' blood.
It is about Jesus' blood shed on the cross.
Evil Eye has many other member accounts here with different names. All you had to do is say 'yes' or 'no'. It isn't so hard to tell the truth.
God's Truth
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That doesn't explain your beliefs.
Do you believe that Jesus in his Spirit went to hell or not?
Just answer yes or no.
Did Jesus himself go to hell after he died in the flesh?
popsthebuilder
New member
None of those scriptures verify that we instantly go to heaven upon death or that we retain our memories or consciousness of our previous physical life. Us being brought from the dead and shown all we had done is not the same as us not dying and remembering on our own.
We have already died.
Paul said, "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:2-4)
In other words, we walk with Christ is a NEW life, the old life was buried.
The point of baptism?
"For he who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:7)
"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins'" (Acts 2:38)
Paul explained there are two types of bodies, a natural body and a heavenly body.
"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)
"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)
"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not risen." (1 Corinthians 15:12-13)
"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:21-22)
For as in Adam all die ... either spiritually through baptism or by no longer breathing. But all die in order to live.
"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)
"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)
"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not risen." (1 Corinthians 15:12-13)
"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:21-22)
For as in Adam all die ... either spiritually through baptism or by no longer breathing. But all die in order to live.
God's Truth
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Of course they prove that.
Could you give the scripture for what you just said?
God's Truth
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The scriptures also show us that we are not just flesh we are flesh and spirit.
When a person dies their spirit returns to God who gave it and the body decomposes.
Those who have received the gift of the Spirit, eternal life, don't die, they sleep.
"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31-32)
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51)
When will we be changed?
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:52)
Those who have received the gift of the Spirit, eternal life, don't die, they sleep.
"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31-32)
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51)
When will we be changed?
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:52)
God's Truth
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We are flesh and spirit.
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form
God's Truth
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That scripture rebukes you. Tell me, is God the God of Abraham? Did not Abraham die in the flesh? So then, is God the God of the dead?