Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
jamie said:
Christ is the first to be born of the Spirit.

Christ is the last, Hebrew acharyon meaning to come.

The word God is Elohim, a noun like family, group, nation, etc.
Click to expand...

It doesn't change that that is the title that God used to identify himself, alone, in the context of "beside me there is no God."
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
jamie, here is my question: Who is this King of Glory that ascends to heaven, receiving his blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation?
Click to expand...

"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.’

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:34-36)
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
It doesn't change that that is the title that God used to identify himself, alone, in the context of "beside me there is no God."
Click to expand...

Beside me there is no Elohim.

"You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3"

You shall have no other Elohim before me.
 
P

popsthebuilder

New member
Rosenritter said:
Thank you for the well supported answer. I'd like to speak about Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God by miracles and signs. It assume that we have no disagreement that he was crucified, slain, and that God raised him up, that it was not possible that he should be held by death.
Spoiler
Acts 2:22-24 KJV
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

David spoke of the Messiah in the Psalms. On one place, he says "for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" and this he speaks not of himself, but another (see Psalm 16:10). David died, and was buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. Jesus of Nazareth, this man approved by God, was raised from the dead, and his flesh did not see corruption.
Spoiler
Acts 2:25-37 KJV
(25) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
(26) Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
(27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(28) Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Psalmist writes further of this man whom God has exalted, and whom has ascended to the heavens, as witnessed by the disciples on the earth (see Acts 1:9). He speaks of one who who shall ascend this hill of the LORD, who shall stand in his holy place. One who has clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and the righteousness from the God of his salvation. This is the man that the Psalmist says shall ascend into heaven. Yet like before, this is not David, for David has not ascended to heaven. Who has ascended to heaven?
Spoiler
(33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Where is this written? Let us look in the most famous psalms of Psalms, where David begins to tell us of Jesus, whom was crucified.

Psalms 22:14-16 KJV
(14) I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
(15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
(16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:30-31 KJV
(30) A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
(31) They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

The Psalm doesn't stop there. It continues into the 23rd Psalm, the well known and beloved, "The Lord is my Shepherd" - and we know that our Messiah (the annointed) perished on that cross, and entered that shadow of death.

Psalms 23:4-6 KJV
(4) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
(5) Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
(6) Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Have you ever wondered why Peter spoke to his audience of Jews, and bothered to say that David has not ascended to the heavens? That's because there's something very significant about one who does ascend to heaven. The 23rd Psalm doesn't stop with our story there, as it continues...

Psalms 24:1-4 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

With the 22nd and the 23rd Psalm leading into this, and Peter's reference to who has not (and by implication, comparing to who has) ascended to heaven, who does that sound like so far?

Psalms 24:5-8 KJV
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory?

@jamie, here is my question: Who is this King of Glory that ascends to heaven, receiving his blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation?
Spoiler
Psalms 24:8-10 KJV
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Who is this King of Glory?
Spoiler
1 Corinthians 2:7-8 KJV
(7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
(8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Click to expand...
The Christ.

Singular in Spirit alone.

peace.

thanks.

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Rosenritter said:
jamie, here is my question: Who is this King of Glory that ascends to heaven, receiving his blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation?
Click to expand...

jamie said:
"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.’

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:34-36)
Click to expand...

The King of Glory that ascended to heaven is the LORD of Hosts, the LORD God Almighty, Jesus Christ, whom we crucified. I don't have any problem saying that directly.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
That would be accurate.

1. We are told at least twice in absolute statements that the saints are not in heaven. Jesus says "no man has ascended to heaven" and Peter tells us that "David has not ascended to heaven." Absolute statements should not be casually discarded.

2. Paul tells us in Hebrews that the saints of old died in faith, not having receive the promises, but that God has provided some better thing for us, "that they without us should not be made perfect." When he comforts those who have lost loved ones, he assures them that they will see them again at the resurrection, not that they are in heaven.

3. Jesus and the apostles were consistent with their emphasis of the importance of the resurrection of the dead. Were the saints in heaven, it would make the resurrection unnecessary, even destroying their own proofs and contradicting their own statements.

4. Considering that the Psalm tells us that the identification of he who ascends to heaven is none other than the LORD God Almighty, assigning this distinction to anyone else falls in the realm of blasphemy. For this reason, Justin Martyr was so bold as to tell Trypho the Jew that if he met someone who called themselves Christian, but claimed that they ascended to heaven, to call them not Christian.

5. The reformation martyrs that translated the whole bible and worked to make it available for us today also saw this. You'll find this evident in writings of William Tyndale, Martin Luther, and so forth: they identified the "saints in heaven" belief as having its roots in Greek philosophy and perpetuated by the Roman church.

So no, I don't believe there are saints in heaven. And per point four, if I were to believe saints were in heaven, that would also make them LORD.

patrick jane said:
But you don't believe there are saints in heaven?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
God's Truth said:
To rule with Christ.
Click to expand...

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."
(Revelation 5:9-10)
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
God's Truth said:
The saved are in His temple.
Click to expand...

The saved are his temple.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3;16-14)

Where does the Spirit dwell? In his temple?
 
P

popsthebuilder

New member
patrick jane said:
Yours?
Click to expand...
I was initially wondering about your answer to a question.
f9e38dc192081ec9a9a7bc340dc6336b.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top