Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Lilstu]

OK.
So where did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ? (Matthew 17:3)

The tranfiguration was a vision. It was not real. The Apostles did not see Elijah and Moses because they were dead. They only saw a vision.

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

 

[Rosenritter]

Ge:5:24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Ki:2:11: And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Jude:1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Here are three bible verses that show the Moses Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, and some were resurrected at Jesus resurrection to be a witness of the resurrection.That verse is found here: M't:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
M't:27:53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hello Masmpg,

Genesis 5:24 doesn't say anything about Enoch being in heaven. It doesn't even use the word heaven, it simply says "God took him" and if you believe Hebrews to be an inspired book, it also says that Enoch died, not having received the promises, that his hope is in resurrection. So aside from Genesis not saying that Enoch is in heaven, Hebrews also says that Enoch is not in heaven.

Although 2 Kings 2:11 does use the word "heaven" the context does not grant you the use of "heaven the abode of God." There are three "heavens" including the sky where birds fly and whirlwinds whirl, the upper heaven where the moon and stars abide, and finally, the third heaven which is the throne of God. In context, with a witness seeing a chariot of fire and seeing the whirlwind, in context that's the heaven sky. Further supporting this is when a letter is received from Elijah after this event. Wherever Elijah went after this he was able to send letters.

As further clarification, Jesus states that "no man has ascended to heaven" which would rule out Elijah (or Enoch) being in heaven, or even ascending to heaven even once. Christ's flat out fact statement should take precedence.

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Could you please explain to me why you think Jude 1:9 is relevant? Michael disputed the body of Moses with the devil... which has nothing to do with living or existing in heaven. Likewise, why do you suggest that Matthew 27:52 says anything about saints being in heaven? It very specifically says that the saints that were raised came out and went and appeared unto many. That's not heaven, they were witnessed by people here who were very much alive.

Regardless, besides Jesus's flat fact statement in John 3:13, his own proof of the resurrection (above) depends on that fact that the dead are truly dead, not conscious, not in heaven, and that God cannot be called "the God of the Living" in any other sense. What is the point of your trying to conjure up verses that you will then try to come up with alternate interpretations with which to disprove Christ? Truly, what is your motive here?

 

[Rosenritter]

The tranfiguration was a vision. It was not real. The Apostles did not see Elijah and Moses because they were dead. They only saw a vision.

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

Even if it was the actual Elijah and the actual Moses, it wouldn't mean that they were alive before the vision, or after the vision, and it certainly doesn't do anything to establish that they existed in heaven at any point. Logic and accuracy seem to go out the window when folks are scrambling for proofs of "going to heaven" it seems.

 

[Lilstu]

Did Enoch or Elijah go to Heaven?
Let’s ask Jesus.
John 3:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

The writer of Hebrews testifies that Enoch is dead.
The writer mentions several men of faith, including Enoch and concludes with…
Hebrews 11:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

By now you are thinking….not so fast…what about Hebrews 11:5
Hebrews 11:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

What does it mean that Enoch “would not see death”?
Answer…He would not see the second death.
John 8:51 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Meaning…all men die but those who keep Jesus’ word will not die the second death.

So did Elijah go to Heaven and not die?
2 Kings 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

Elijah had been a prophet during the time of King Ahab and his son Ahaziah.
Now God was replacing Elijah with his successor Elisha as prophet.
So God took Elijah up into the sky, his mantle fell to Elisha and God moved Elijah to another location.

Four years later, when there was a later king, Elijah wrote a letter proving he was still alive on earth.
2 Chronicles 21:12-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, “Thus says the Lord God of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you, 14 behold, the Lord is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity; 15 and you will suffer severe sickness, a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the sickness, day by day.’”

 

[Lilstu]

Even if it was the actual Elijah and the actual Moses, it wouldn't mean that they were alive before the vision, or after the vision, and it certainly doesn't do anything to establish that they existed in heaven at any point. Logic and accuracy seem to go out the window when folks are scrambling for proofs of "going to heaven" it seems.

I agree. The dead do not go to Heaven

 

[jamie]

So aside from Genesis not saying that Enoch is in heaven, Hebrews also says that Enoch is not in heaven.

Genesis 5:23-24 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.​

In Hebrew the word "not" means he ceased to exist. All his days were 365 years and then he was no more. But he will be in the first resurrection when Christ presents himself to the world.

 

[masmpg]

Hello Masmpg,

if you believe Hebrews to be an inspired book, it also says that Enoch died, not having received the promises, that his hope is in resurrection. So aside from Genesis not saying that Enoch is in heaven, Hebrews also says that Enoch is not in heaven.

First off if God took Enoch where did He take Him to? Especially if he had the testimony that "pleased God"
Heb:11:5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews does not state that enoch died. Quite contrary is that he did not see death.

Although 2 Kings 2:11 does use the word "heaven" the context does not grant you the use of "heaven the abode of God." There are three "heavens" including the sky where birds fly and whirlwinds whirl, the upper heaven where the moon and stars abide, and finally, the third heaven which is the throne of God. In context, with a witness seeing a chariot of fire and seeing the whirlwind, in context that's the heaven sky. Further supporting this is when a letter is received from Elijah after this event. Wherever Elijah went after this he was able to send letters.
I never heard of any "letter" after Elijah was translated to heaven. If you are referring to the book of Elijah, well I prefer to stay with the inspired canon of God's holy word.

As further clarification, Jesus states that "no man has ascended to heaven" which would rule out Elijah (or Enoch) being in heaven, or even ascending to heaven even once. Christ's flat out fact statement should take precedence.

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Could you please explain to me why you think Jude 1:9 is relevant? Michael disputed the body of Moses with the devil... which has nothing to do with living or existing in heaven. Likewise, why do you suggest that Matthew 27:52 says anything about saints being in heaven? It very specifically says that the saints that were raised came out and went and appeared unto many. That's not heaven, they were witnessed by people here who were very much alive.
The saints were the first fruits of the resurrection of Jesus

Regardless, besides Jesus's flat fact statement in John 3:13, his own proof of the resurrection (above) depends on that fact that the dead are truly dead, not conscious, not in heaven, and that God cannot be called "the God of the Living" in any other sense. What is the point of your trying to conjure up verses that you will then try to come up with alternate interpretations with which to disprove Christ? Truly, what is your motive here?

WOW really are you going to yell at me next?
Here is John 3 quoted in context "John:3:12&13: "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." You must read the whole context to understand that Jesus is referring to the miracle of Him being in heaven and there with Nicodemus at the same time. This is one of the most incomprehensible verses in the whole bible. To presume you understand it, well I never want to argue here.

I agree that the dead are dead,but there were a few that were translated. Moses body being disputed over represents the righteous dead, and Elijah represents the righteous living that will be caught up to be with Jesus when He comes to take His people, ALL of them with Him to heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

Did Enoch or Elijah go to Heaven?
Let’s ask Jesus.
John 3:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

The writer of Hebrews testifies that Enoch is dead.
The writer mentions several men of faith, including Enoch and concludes with…
Hebrews 11:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

By now you are thinking….not so fast…what about Hebrews 11:5
Hebrews 11:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

What does it mean that Enoch “would not see death”?
Answer…He would not see the second death.
John 8:51 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Meaning…all men die but those who keep Jesus’ word will not die the second death.

So did Elijah go to Heaven and not die?
2 Kings 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

Elijah had been a prophet during the time of King Ahab and his son Ahaziah.
Now God was replacing Elijah with his successor Elisha as prophet.
So God took Elijah up into the sky, his mantle fell to Elisha and God moved Elijah to another location.

Four years later, when there was a later king, Elijah wrote a letter proving he was still alive on earth.
2 Chronicles 21:12-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, “Thus says the Lord God of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you, 14 behold, the Lord is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity; 15 and you will suffer severe sickness, a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the sickness, day by day.’”

I'm not sure about "should not see death" would mean the second death. If Enoch really walked with God and was specifically more righteous would that be God's solution, to kill him quickly lest he change? I also consider that "should not see death" could mean the deaths of others or so that he would not be slain by wicked men in the world.

One might say that if Enoch died it couldn't be true, but it doesn't say that Enoch died when God took him. It just tells us that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises. He could have lived for a long time where ever God placed him in the world.

 

[Rosenritter]

Genesis 5:23-24 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.​

In Hebrew the word "not" means he ceased to exist. All his days were 365 years and then he was no more. But he will be in the first resurrection when Christ presents himself to the world.

"Not" could mean that he ceased to exist from the known world. I'm sure there was more world in existence on the earth than was known by man. I acknowledge that God could have taken Enoch's life then and Enoch would have had the faith to know that he would rise at Christ's return, but it's just that the Bible doesn't tell us that "Enoch died" at a certain point. It simply says "was not" instead of died in Genesis.

 

[Rosenritter]

WOW really are you going to yell at me next?
Here is John 3 quoted in context "John:3:12&13: "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." You must read the whole context to understand that Jesus is referring to the miracle of Him being in heaven and there with Nicodemus at the same time. This is one of the most incomprehensible verses in the whole bible. To presume you understand it, well I never want to argue here.

I agree that the dead are dead,but there were a few that were translated. Moses body being disputed over represents the righteous dead, and Elijah represents the righteous living that will be caught up to be with Jesus when He comes to take His people, ALL of them with Him to heaven.

I am not going to yell at you. And although Christ's point may not have been whether the dead are alive elsewhere, how would that ever have been his point? That doctrine wasn't in existence at that time to even come up.

But I don't find that passage incomprehensible. It makes perfect sense to me. I understand Jesus to be God, God in the flesh, God walking among us, and I understand God as big enough to be in more than one place at the same time. I can stand in two countries at the same time (one foot across each border), I can be in two worlds the same time (Theology Online is a world and so is my home) and God can be in heaven and on earth at the same time if he so wishes. At least that's how I understand it, and it doesn't create any contradictions that I can see.

Actually curious, why do you apply the passage about the body of Moses to mean he is in heaven? It doesn't say anything like that that I can see.

 

[Lilstu]

The Example of Death in the Greek Scriptures

The Example of Death in the Greek Scriptures

Often Christians have different views on what happens to us at death.
Option #1...Some say that we are unconscious in the grave waiting for the “last day” to be resurrected to a life on earth.

Option #2...Some say our bodies decay in the ground while our souls go up to Heaven to be with Jesus.

There is an interesting incident in the Bible which may shed some light on the controversy.

Acts 9:36-41 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
36 Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did. 37 And it happened at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room. 38 Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there, sent two men to him, imploring him, “Do not delay in coming to us.” 39 So Peter arose and went with them. When he arrived, they brought him into the upper room; and all the widows stood beside him, weeping and showing all the tunics and garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them. 40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up. 41 And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

Tabitha was a disciple abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did. I would expect a woman like this would be a candidate for the kingdom.

She dies, they prepare her body, and they send two men to Lydda to bring Peter back to Joppa. Now Joppa is near present day Tel Aviv and Lydda is about 10 miles away. So round trip is 20 miles. If the men walked two miles per hour we would expect that at the earliest Peter would arrive at Tabitha’s bier at least 10 hours after her death.

Peter does his thing and brings the woman back to life after she has been dead at least 10 hours.

If Option #1 is correct, Tabitha was unconscious dead, and Peter brought her back to life and everyone was happy.

But Option #2 presents a problem. If she was dead for ten hours her soul would have gone up to Heaven, she would have been with Jesus. She would have been literally caught up into Paradise. But then 10 hours later yanked out of Heavenly bliss and back to this world by Peter. Would this had been fair treatment for this fine woman? Do you suppose this is what happened?

I believe that this story demonstrates that when we die we are unconscious in the grave waiting for our resurrection.

What do you think?

 

[jamie]

"Not" could mean that he ceased to exist from the known world. I'm sure there was more world in existence on the earth than was known by man. I acknowledge that God could have taken Enoch's life then and Enoch would have had the faith to know that he would rise at Christ's return, but it's just that the Bible doesn't tell us that "Enoch died" at a certain point. It simply says "was not" instead of died in Genesis.

I guess "not" can mean whatever you want it to mean. Strong's thinks it means this: "H369 אין 'ayin ay'-yin As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without, Compare H370."

 

[jamie]

If she was dead for ten hours her soul would have gone up to Heaven...

In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Paul a person is made up of three elements.

The spirit is pneuma (unseen), soul is psuche, body is soma.

A soul is comprised of a brain and a human spirit.

Death will cause the brain to decay and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God preserves a person's spirit and can place it in a new body and there the person is good as new.

 

[patrick jane]

In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Paul a person is made up of three elements.

The spirit is pneuma (unseen), soul is psuche, body is soma.

A soul is comprised of a brain and a human spirit.

Death will cause the brain to decay and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God preserves a person's spirit and can place it in a new body and there the person is good as new.

Far out jamie !!

 

[Rosenritter]

In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Paul a person is made up of three elements.

The spirit is pneuma (unseen), soul is psuche, body is soma.

A soul is comprised of a brain and a human spirit.

Death will cause the brain to decay and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God preserves a person's spirit and can place it in a new body and there the person is good as new.

Do you suppose that maybe Paul wasn't attempting to give a metaphysical lesson in "components of the human" and instead was using every possible word that people applied to the man, to mean "everything?" As an example, when the risen Jesus was speaking to his disciples and telling them that he was not an apparition, he said he was "flesh and bone" but he didn't say anything about blood, teeth, hair, or nails. That doesn't mean he was excluding those, but that "flesh and bone" was meant to be representative of the whole package.

In like manner, I suggest that "whole spirit, soul, and body" may be simply a way to say "the whole package" and perhaps more wasn't meant to be read into that.

 

[jamie]

In like manner, I suggest that "whole spirit, soul, and body" may be simply a way to say "the whole package" and perhaps more wasn't meant to be read into that.

Or maybe the Holy Spirit wanted people to understand what comprises a soul and how it is that a soul can die.

 

[Rosenritter]

Or maybe the Holy Spirit wanted people to understand what comprises a soul and how it is that a soul can die.

No need. Genesis takes care of that already. Here's the composition of a soul. Dust plus the breath of God.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And this is how the soul dies.

Genesis 3:19 KJV
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It's so absolutely simple if people would be willing to believe their bibles.

 

[jamie]

Dust plus the breath of God.

What happens to God's breath when a person dies and their body decays?

 

[Lilstu]

What happens to God's breath when a person dies and their body decays?

You gotta watch those translators very carefully.
Sometimes they translate the same words as breath and in other places spirit and even wind. They translate to fit their agenda.

 

[patrick jane]

Don't forget to vote in the poll !!!