Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Rosenritter]

The poll proves there are saints in heaven !!!

I hope that's not serious. Polls don't prove anything beyond the volume of opinion on a question as it is worded at one particular point in time. Shall we conduct a poll to find out if Mohammad is the True Prophet, the messenger of the One True God Allah? To be fair we should include the world population in that one.

 

[Gurucam]

I don't do chain letters.

That cannot be true.

Your entire theology or a great part of it, is a chain letter, i.e. it is parroting (repeating) of the ideas of your false Christian teacher(s).

Salvation lies in getting your information directly and literally from the Holy KJV N.T.

 

[Rosenritter]

That cannot be true.

Your entire theology or a great part of it, is a chain letter, i.e. it is parroting (repeating) of the ideas of your false Christian teacher(s).

Salvation lies in getting your information directly and literally from the Holy KJV N.T.

Have you practiced making unsubstantiated accusations, or are you new at this?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Have you practiced making unsubstantiated accusations, or are you new at this?

He is not new to it.

Gurucam is a spiritualist.

He claims one must leave his unspiritual wife and find another spiritual one, otherwise all of the children will be of the devil.

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

LA

 

[ladyrepublican]

No one but the Godhead and his angels are in heaven right now. The dead are in Hades (rendered "hell in KJV). At the judgement, the living and dead will be judged, then those that were in Torment will be cast into the lake of fire. Jesus spent time Hades before his resurrection but the gates didn't prevail against him.

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[Crucible]

Some people completely ignore the fact that Jesus told St. Dismas he'd would be in Paradise with him that same day as they were crucified.

It's crystal clear, plainly stated- I've heard arguments trying to get around it and they are all ridiculous- it's a perfect example of how easily a person can warp meaning of the scriptures to make it seem as they want

 

[ladyrepublican]

Yeah, completely ignore the fact that Jesus told St. Dismas he'd would be in Paradise with him that same day as they were nailed to their crosses.

It's crystal clear, plainly stated- therefore, you are simply wrong.

The bible mentions no "St. Dismas" anywhere. He told a thief that statement, and he didn't say "heaven" meaning God's abode. The idea of the Hadean realm is taught in Luke 16. Lazarus was with Abraham in Paradise and the rich man was in Torment. Also, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) so it wasn't already in its final abode. If saints are already in heaven, why would they be required to exit for a judgement, then go back in?

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[ladyrepublican]

What I'm amazed by is this is a religious forum and yet the people in it act in a hateful manner

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[Crucible]

The bible mentions no "St. Dismas" anywhere.

Why don't you march over to that dreadful 'CARM' website, where they ban people for things like calling the good thief by his traditional name

He told a thief that statement, and he didn't say "heaven" meaning God's abode. The idea of the Hadean realm is taught in Luke 16. Lazarus was with Abraham in Paradise and the rich man was in Torment.

^
Argument pretending to have a substantiated point lain:

If saints are already in heaven, why would they be required to exit for a judgement, then go back in?

Because the Bible says the saints will participate.

And
Why does there need to be two deaths, then?


'Soul sleep' is straight up heresy, for good reason. First you need to explain what kind of agenda Christianity would have in refusing something you feel is so simple..

 

[Rosenritter]

Some people completely ignore the fact that Jesus told St. Dismas he'd would be in Paradise with him that same day as they were crucified.

It's crystal clear, plainly stated- I've heard arguments trying to get around it and they are all ridiculous- it's a perfect example of how easily a person can warp meaning of the scriptures to make it seem as they want

Jesus didn't tell anyone they would be in heaven the same day as they were crucified. You're reading the grammar wrong.

Luke 23:43 KJV
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That means that the proclamation was enacted that day. It doesn't specify the date of fulfillment.

Same as when Saul spoke to David.

1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
(21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.



And same as when Solomon spoke to Shimei.

1 Kings 2:42 KJV
(42) And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.


If your English bible translates that correctly, like the Old Catholic bibles and the King James, it should say "today shalt" thou be with me in Paradise. It obviously can't be "today you will" because Jesus wasn't in Paradise that day.The morning of his resurrection he still hadn't ascended to heaven.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


So if you want to pay attention to what Jesus says, pay attention to what he says to Mary also. Don't change his words to mean something else. Peter said that Jesus was in hell during those three days. Unless you want to claim that Paradise is hell, you might want to revise your criticism.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, Jesus did say that he would be with him in Paradise. The thief will be with Jesus in Paradise, when Jesus comes into his kingdom. He comes into his kingdom when he returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Jesus is in his kingdom now.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

 

[God's Truth]

Is David in heaven?

All the spirits of the righteous are in heaven.

When a person comes to God through Jesus, they HAVE COME TO MOUNT ZION, to the heavenly Jerusalem. We actually come to heaven where God is.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

When people come to God through Jesus, they actually come to heaven, where God is, and Jesus, and to thousands upon thousands of angels, and to the spirit of righteous men made perfect. The spirits of the faithful who had died, but live in the spirit

 

[God's Truth]

Nor am I. But you seem to be disputing Revelations definition of the first resurrection. That happens when Christ returns.

Paul also says that no one is changed to immortality before the second coming, 1 Corinthians 15. Regardless of popular vote before entering the forum those passages remain.

Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

We are seated there in Christ Jesus, in the meantime we live our life in the physical dimension.

We live our lives in the Spiritual realm.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

 

[Crucible]

:yawn:

The internet is full of heresy.

I'm allegedly 'reading the grammar wrong', and yet the person saying it bends semantics to make it seem as something else. Just as I stated before- mincing the words to fit one's bias.

There was some grand conspiracy through all of Christianity's history to make people believe they didn't go to Heaven until the end time.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Rosenritter]

What I'm amazed by is this is a religious forum and yet the people in it act in a hateful manner

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Religious forums contain some of the fiercest hatred.

 

[Rosenritter]

:yawn:

The internet is full of heresy.

I'm allegedly 'reading the grammar wrong', and yet the person saying it bends semantics to make it seem as something else. Just as I stated before- mincing the words to fit one's bias.

There was some grand conspiracy through all of Christianity's history to make people believe they didn't go to Heaven until the end time.

Makes perfect sense.

Are you wiser than Solomon?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


There's no "bending semantics." I simply proved the meaning of the words in the translation by pointing to other instances of the same usage within the same bible. Then I proved which translation was correct by the relevant context. Jesus was in hell, he didn't ascend until three days later, he had not yet ascended to his Father.

So at this point you are arguing against God and the Bible. Not me. Is there a grand conspiracy against God and the Bible? Yes. There is.

 

[Rosenritter]

Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

And not one of those passages was referencing a literal death. Did you notice that? Your passages didn't establish at all what you claimed they did.

Here's something else that I'd like you to notice. Did you notice that Paul says that the saints that died did not inherit the promises, but that we without them shall not be made perfect? That we shall all be perfected at the same time?

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:38-40 KJV
(38) (Of whom the world was not worthy; ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So, if the saints supposedly go to heaven when they die, why would such a thing not be plainly stated? And why would Paul not comfort the Thessalonians with such a thing, if he had known it? How come he comforted them with the resurrection?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Apparently Paul believed in "Soul Sleep" as someone here called it. And apparently he knew nothing about this doctrine of going to heaven when you died. He believed that first you died, and then you were raised when Christ returned. That doctrine, of the resurrection, and he taught no other.

Why would you argue against this? Is this not good enough for you?

 

[God's Truth]

And not one of those passages was referencing a literal death. Did you notice that? Your passages didn't establish at all what you claimed they did.

Where do you ever get that I said there was a literal death?

 

[God's Truth]

Here's something else that I'd like you to notice.

Notice that you did not reply directly to anything that I said and the scriptures I gave.