Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Rosenritter]

Notice that you did not reply directly to anything that I said and the scriptures I gave.

Yes. I did. I pointed out that not one of them was relevant. Not a single one of them was in reference to our physical death or dying. You claimed that they proved we went to heaven when we died. Not one of those scriptures was in that realm.

Would you mind dealing with the direct statements concerning death, our reward, and resurrection, that I provided now? Or alternatively, would you tell me why you wouldn't trust God to raise you from the dead if death was actually death, and you lost consciousness for a moment?

 

[Rosenritter]

Where do you ever get that I said there was a literal death?

Hmm. I figured that was a typo and tried to auto-correct.

Originally Posted by God's Truth
Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

Tell me, if your "spirit is in heaven" then what do you see?

Because to me that looks like a metaphor of promise. Not a "literally our spirits are in heaven." Especially considering that we have Christ's DIRECT WORDS saying that men are not in heaven. Hardly an obscure passage, either.

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


That leaves me to think that your interpretation is not properly grounded. Besides this, the Bible defines the first resurrection. And it also speaks out against anyone that says that the resurrection is past, like I think you just did.

Revelation 20:5 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[God's Truth]

Did you notice that Paul says that the saints that died did not inherit the promises,

Not in their fleshly lifetime. They were made perfect after they died. I gave you the scripture that says that, but instead of you dealing with the scriptures I post, you try to nullify them with other scriptures.

but that we without them shall not be made perfect?

That is right, because they were made perfect WHEN Jesus died and the gospel was preached.

They are the cloud of witnesses.

They were in heaven looking on to the gospel mystery that was being made known.

Hebrews 12:2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

That we shall all be perfected at the same time?

I guess you do not know that we are made perfect when we are saved.


Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Apparently Paul believed in "Soul Sleep" as someone here called it.

Paul did not believe in soul sleep, the doctrine of death, as I call it.

And apparently he knew nothing about this doctrine of going to heaven when you died. He believed that first you died, and then you were raised when Christ returned. That doctrine, of the resurrection, and he taught no other.

Paul knew he was going to heaven when he died.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.


Did you read that?

Paul speaks of remaining in the body or departing to be with Christ.

Why would you argue against this? Is this not good enough for you?

I only want God's Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes. I did. I pointed out that not one of them was relevant. Not a single one of them was in reference to our physical death or dying.

Where have you done this?

You claimed that they proved we went to heaven when we died. Not one of those scriptures was in that realm.

Which scriptures does not say that? What do you say the scriptures really mean.

Would you mind dealing with the direct statements concerning death, our reward, and resurrection, that I provided now? Or alternatively, would you tell me why you wouldn't trust God to raise you from the dead if death was actually death, and you lost consciousness for a moment?

God raises our bodies from the dead. How do you get that is proof our spirits die?

 

[Rosenritter]

Not in their fleshly lifetime. They were made perfect after they died. I gave you the scripture that says that, but instead of you dealing with the scriptures I post, you try to nullify them with other scriptures.

That is right, because they were made perfect WHEN Jesus died and the gospel was preached.

They are the cloud of witnesses.

They were in heaven looking on to the gospel mystery that was being made known.

Hebrews 12:2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,




I guess you do not know that we are made perfect when we are saved.


Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,



Paul did not believe in soul sleep, the doctrine of death, as I call it.



Paul knew he was going to heaven when he died.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.


Did you read that?

Paul speaks of remaining in the body or departing to be with Christ.

I only want God's Truth.

First, Paul uses the term "perfected" to mean being raised immortal, incorruptible. He says without this change we cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul spends a lot of time directly talking about the resurrection, which your theory there effectively denies.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now, that trumpet has not yet sounded. The dead have not been raised. And until that change, it says we cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That's quite clear.

Now I'm going to ask you to be honest for a moment. I want you to try really hard. Not being entirely sarcastic either. So the question is there. If the dead are actually dead, as the scripture says, without love, hatred, envy, knowledge, ability to praise God, knowledge that they are dead, and so forth...

(Did you get that?) then if the dead don't know that they are dead and have no more knowledge or thoughts or emotion, then how long do they "wait" until they are raised? Do they get bored?

And when the dead are raised, as Paul describes, with the shout of the archangel, whom are they rising to meet? Isn't that the Lord, returning in the air? So how long does Paul have to wait from when he dies to rising in the air to meet Christ?

I just asked you to be honest. Let's see if you can give an honest answer. Typically people refuse to answer that question.

 

[Rosenritter]

Where have you done this?



Which scriptures does not say that? What do you say the scriptures really mean.

God raises our bodies from the dead. How do you get that is proof our spirits die?

Where did you get the impression that our spirits never die? God, at the beginning, told us that if we sinned we would die. Do you need book chapter and verse for that?

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It doesn't say that we are spirits that never die. It says that we are souls, and that our souls shall die. And then God describes death as returning to the earth.

 

[God's Truth]

Tell me, if your "spirit is in heaven" then what do you see?

I am in the realm of the Spirit because I have the Spirit of Christ in me.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

I see light, truth, life, purity, beauty, Love.

Because to me that looks like a metaphor of promise. Not a "literally our spirits are in heaven." Especially considering that we have Christ's DIRECT WORDS saying that men are not in heaven. Hardly an obscure passage, either.

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

That scripture is about someone going to heaven in a physical body.

That leaves me to think that your interpretation is not properly grounded. Besides this, the Bible defines the first resurrection. And it also speaks out against anyone that says that the resurrection is past, like I think you just did.

You are trying so hard and resorting to dishonesty. You know I spoke of a spiritual resurrection and not a physical resurrection.

Revelation 20:5 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What do you think that scripture is saying?
Read the next scripture.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The resurrection of the dead is about a physical resurrection. How do you ever get that a spiritual resurrection would take away someone's faith? The scriptures plainly tell us we are resurrected spiritually when we are saved.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

First, Paul uses the term "perfected" to mean being raised immortal, incorruptible. He says without this change we cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul spends a lot of time directly talking about the resurrection, which your theory there effectively denies.

I already gave you many scriptures that say we are made PERFECT, and HOLY when we are saved.

You just ignore all the scripture I gave and try to nullify them by posting other scriptures

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now, that trumpet has not yet sounded. The dead have not been raised. And until that change, it says we cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That's quite clear.

Paul is speaking about the physical resurrection when we receive new bodies that are spiritual in nature.

See how I explain the scripture that you tried to use against what I say. Now try to do that too with the scriptures I give.

Now I'm going to ask you to be honest for a moment. I want you to try really hard. Not being entirely sarcastic either.

You are getting desperate and resorting to insults because you are not proving your false beliefs with truth.

So the question is there. If the dead are actually dead, as the scripture says, without love, hatred, envy, knowledge, ability to praise God, knowledge that they are dead, and so forth...

(Did you get that?) then if the dead don't know that they are dead and have no more knowledge or thoughts or emotion, then how long do they "wait" until they are raised? Do they get bored?

You need to post the scriptures you are talking about so we can discuss what they mean.

And when the dead are raised, as Paul describes, with the shout of the archangel, whom are they rising to meet? Isn't that the Lord, returning in the air? So how long does Paul have to wait from when he dies to rising in the air to meet Christ?

Where do you get that there is a waiting period when Paul speaks about in a twinkling of the eye?

I just asked you to be honest. Let's see if you can give an honest answer. Typically people refuse to answer that question.

I do not refuse to talk about the scriptures.

 

[God's Truth]

Where did you get the impression that our spirits never die?

I have been giving you scriptures that tell us that, but you do not address them. You merely try to nullify scripture with scripture.

God, at the beginning, told us that if we sinned we would die. Do you need book chapter and verse for that?

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There is a spiritual death because of separation from God, and there is a physical death because of sin.

Did Adam and Eve die physically that day, or did they loose the spiritual life they had with God?

It doesn't say that we are spirits that never die. It says that we are souls, and that our souls shall die. And then God describes death as returning to the earth.

Can you point out to me where it says 'souls'?

 

[Crucible]

Are you wiser than Solomon?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


There's no "bending semantics." I simply proved the meaning of the words in the translation by pointing to other instances of the same usage within the same bible. Then I proved which translation was correct by the relevant context. Jesus was in hell, he didn't ascend until three days later, he had not yet ascended to his Father.

So at this point you are arguing against God and the Bible. Not me. Is there a grand conspiracy against God and the Bible? Yes. There is.

So you've proven the entire church and every theologian the past 2000 years wrong, huh?

You just don't get it- you are doing nothing but making legal fictions of scripture. On one hand you were saying that there's Hades, which the rich man experienced, and now you are saying souls sleep until the end time.

Another thing is 'no memory of thee' being taken completely outside it's meaning- in old belief, a person isn't truly dead until they are forgotten.

The fact is that particular judgement is a universal concept of Christianity. It is the dogma which states that the soul goes either to Paradise or Hell to await the final day when they return to their bodies- renewed or decayed- and either assume once and for all or burn once and for all.

That is that, plain and simple. Now drop your heresy :wave:

 

[jamie]

Is this a "day" of salvation?

 

[God's Truth]

I love this topic. It seems Rosenritter was the most interested in it, besides me. Would Rosenritter like to address some of the points that I made? I did a lot of work answer your posts, at least do the same.

 

[jamie]

Paul did not believe in soul sleep, the doctrine of death, as I call it.

Why do you not believe in eternal life?

 

[God's Truth]

Why do you not believe in eternal life?

Why do you think I do not believe in eternal life?

 

[jamie]

Why do you think I do not believe in eternal life?

Where is David? Is he dead?

 

[God's Truth]

Where is David? Is he dead?

David's body is dead, not David himself, because God is the God of the living.

See, the resurrection of our bodies is the hope not seen that the Jews waited for and we all do.

The scripture about David being buried is about his physical body.

 

[God's Truth]

The resurrection of our bodies is what the Israelists hoped for.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life.

Jesus' body is the only body that ascended into heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

I already gave you many scriptures that say we are made PERFECT, and HOLY when we are saved.

You just ignore all the scripture I gave and try to nullify them by posting other scriptures



Paul is speaking about the physical resurrection when we receive new bodies that are spiritual in nature.

See how I explain the scripture that you tried to use against what I say. Now try to do that too with the scriptures I give.




You are getting desperate and resorting to insults because you are not proving your false beliefs with truth.



You need to post the scriptures you are talking about so we can discuss what they mean.



Where do you get that there is a waiting period when Paul speaks about in a twinkling of the eye?



I do not refuse to talk about the scriptures.

1. You've ignored the passages when they've been posted before. If you knew this subject you'd recognize the passages already. If you didn't know the subject yet I just gave you enough words that you could find them with a quick search.

2. You just refused to answer the question....

 

[Rosenritter]

David's body is dead, not David himself, because God is the God of the living.

See, the resurrection of our bodies is the hope not seen that the Jews waited for and we all do.

The scripture about David being buried is about his physical body.

When Jesus said that God was the God of the living, and not the dead, he said this to prove that the dead shall rise.

If Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob were "conscious" or 'aware" in any sense, then Jesus fails to prove the resurrection when he speaks to the Sadducees. Have you read the passage you reference?

Luke 20:34-38 KJV
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

If anyone is "in heaven" as you suggest, then Jesus just committed massive fail, because "God is not the God of the dead" fails to prove the resurrection. That's the ONLY item that Jesus gave as proof.

"Going to heaven when you die" is disproved by Christ's own argument.

 

[masmpg]

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

They were elements of the vision. However, if they were not elements of a vision, then Moses and Elias could have been raised from the dead for their appearance and laid back to rest afterwards. However, considering that the characters of Moses and Elias are also symbols (Moses and the prophets) I am inclined to believed Jesus in Matthew 17:9 when he called their experience a vision.

Ge:5:24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Ki:2:11: And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Jude:1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Here are three bible verses that show the Moses Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, and some were resurrected at Jesus resurrection to be a witness of the resurrection.That verse is found here: M't:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
M't:27:53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.