Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[God's Truth]

Am quite amazed at your ability to close your eyes from seeing the truth. Before a sheep becomes a "Lost sheep", it was in the sheepfold under its shepherd's care, hence, it's first situation is "NOT Lost". Can you understand now?

Tell that to yourself, GT.

Don't you realize that when Jesus came to earth he came only for those who were already saved?

 

[God's Truth]

WRONG.

You can't even explain how & why you are now in Christ, can you?

Of course I can explain it.

I am in Christ now because I believed and obeyed him and then he saved me.

 

[nikolai_42]

I am amazed at you not seeing that the lost do not start life already lost, despite your use of the word "return". If you were born in sin, then you are born NOT with God because sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2). So how can you return to God when you were NEVER with Him?

Jesus frequently talks on the level of groups of people - not necessarily individuals. Many times He uses parables that address the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" specifically since that is who He came to (Matthew 15:24). Israel needs to return. That said, there are those that never rebelled on an individual level. But that doesn't mean they were born without sin or a sin nature. Those that had the truth but departed from it - do they not need to return? Does that returning imply that they were born without sin? No. You are reading that in to the text. Jesus came to seek and save those that were lost. He wasn't a backup plan or just a Savior for some who happened to depart (while others had not) but He was the very salvation of God that every man needs. Every man needs that salvation just as He told Nicodemus in John 3 that a man must be born of the water AND of the Spirit. His very nature must be changed. You don't get a Maple tree out of an acorn. You don't get a holy disposition out of a carnal mind (Romans 8:7-9). What was lost in Adam will be regained in Christ (I Cor 15:21-22). That is how we (all) return. You have simply assumed it means people are born without sin or without the sinful nature.

Of course it does deny the doctrine of Augustine that people are born in sin, instead of born in Christ. If people are born in sin, then children are born NOT in Christ. BUT there will children in the kingdom.

And that speaks of the earthly kingdom. What of the heavenly?

Jesus taught that there will be no marriage in heaven (Matt 22:30; Mark 12:25) and therefore no pregnancy can occur in the kingdom. So, from where did those children in the kingdom come from? The only possibility is, they are those, in this earth now, who died at infancy and will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just. If children are born in sin, as you claim, then children won't get resurrected in the resurrection of the just, being sinners and hence unjust as per your proposition.

Using that verbage, Paul won't be there either :

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
I Timothy 1:15-16

Paul was a sinner who believed. Recall you brought up the point about the kingdom of heaven being of little children (though I still am not certain that passage is intended in that way). Recall also the fact that Jesus clearly said that those who receive the kingdom as a little child will enter therein. The issue of sin is a big one - but the impediment overcome by the Savior so that all those who believe in Him (not who are sinless) will have everlasting life. David - a man after God's own heart - committed several serious sins - and while he and his household paid the price, that didn't change God's view of David's position relative to Himself.

So for a child to be a born sinner doesn't phase me in the least. It doesn't change something more that God looks at beyond what man looks at (the externals). It doesn't mean we have good hearts in the sense of Jeremiah 17:9, but rather that we receive the kingdom as a little child. Sin brings death. We are all partakers of both. No exceptions. But thanks be to God that that is not the qualification for entering into life! It is belief...receiving the kingdom as a little child.

 

[jsanford108]

Jesus rose on the first day of the week, Sunday.

He was in the tomb for three days and three nights, 72 hours.

What about John 2, where Christ says that on the "third day" He would rise? Never does Christ say "fourth day." Never does anyone in that passage believe, nor clarify, that Christ means rising on day 4. (John 2:19-22)

 

[jsanford108]

No, brother. You could have simply misunderstood them.

No. It's your position that is disproven, not what the Bible says. The Bible is simply not in accord with your belief which you think is in accord with it.

Good to know that you know that. So why do you deny what Jesus said as plainly written in the Bible, brother? He plainly taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was in the house with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.

So why can't you believe what He taught and instead believe on Augustine of Hippo that people are born in sin and hence born NOT in Christ and therefore born already lost?

Could you provide evidence, both Scripture and logic, that disproves my position?

You claim that I have misunderstood the Biblical reference to being born in sin. If so, how?
Could you demonstrate where the Bible is not in accord with my position? (know, that I will provide verses that support my position)

"Good to know that you know that. So why do you deny what Jesus said as plainly written in the Bible, brother? He plainly taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.

So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.

So why can't you believe what He taught and instead believe on Augustine of Hippo that people are born in sin and hence born NOT in Christ and therefore born already lost?": If we are in Christ at birth, then how does one go to hell?

As another user pointed out, Christ spoke to multitudes, as did the Apostles. Many times, such teachings are generalizations, made simple so that the multitudes could understand the divine truths being taught. We, who live in the present, are at an advantage, having all the Scriptures, and teachings, available all at one. We are truly blessed. With the gift of having all the Scriptures at once, we must also take every piece in historical, and critical, context. Knowing how to separate generalizations from specifics. There are many more verses about humanity being born in sin. The verses about being born in Christ are all references to salvation, not about physical birth being in union with present salvation realities. If I am unclear in this point, let me know, as I will dissect it further.

 

[Bright Raven]

Because we, like sheep, went astray:

KJV Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Nope. To be born in sin, is to be born NOT in Christ and hence born lost. But Jesus taught that people start out in life NOT lost. He plainly pointed out in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was in the house with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.

Do we become sinners when we sin or are we born sinful?

The main Scripture to understand on this topic is Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”

Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth” because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was the result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

Romans 5:18-19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam we are already born spiritually dead (separated from God) and die physically. 1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard. Gal 3:19 “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.” Rom. 5:20-21 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. Job 15:14"What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? Job 25:4How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?

We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being perfect to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath”

James 1:14-15 “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”

Sin comes from within man, it can be a reaction from what is outside a person or just what a person is thinking. John tells us we have an enemy on three fronts the world (which is fallen and under sin and the devils control) the flesh (which carries the sin nature) the devil (a personal angel that is sinful and influences mankind to love sin). Sin has its roots in the heart that influences the intellect and will and ultimately finds its expression through the body when we follow though with the desire (Prov.4:3; Mt.15:19-20; Lk.6:45; Heb.3:12 ; Jm1:14-15. The sin nature is the basis for sinful habits, it is not a single act but a process that begins in our heart. You can say the real source of mans problem is heart disease, our fallen human nature.

Jer. 17:9: "the heart is deceitfully wicked, ( incurably sick). Jesus taught that sin begins within us. Matt 15:18-19 Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

The sin nature affects the immaterial part of man, which consequently affects our outward actions. We sin because we have the nature of sin already in us.Mark is even more specific. (7:20-23) And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

The heart was representative of the innermost being of man. Jesus was affirming what Jeremiah wrote in 17:9-10: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”

David explained that his conception had sin involved. Ps 51:5: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” We as David have a sin nature when we are born, it is not something we learn afterwards. Our actions only express what our nature is. The sin nature is the basis for all sinful habits. Without understanding the source of sin one cannot understand nor give the solution correctly. The Law is not the answer, it points to the problem, it is diagnostic but it is not the cure.

The Bible explains that we are all slaves to sin except for one- Jesus, who did not inherit the sin nature because he was conceived without the aid of a man, formed by God in the womb of a virgin. This why there was a need to bypass the sin nature of man when He took on human flesh.

That is why it makes the point of Jesus being different from conception onward: 1 Peter 2:22: "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth”

I Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.”

There is none that do not sin John introduced Jesus as the ONLY one who can bring the solution, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29. Only Christ Jesus has the solution no other religion can deal with the fallen nature of man.

There are those who claim we are not sinful and think they have been born without sin, they do not understand what sin is and do not know how holy God is.

I Jn. 1:8: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”

All have sin and all do sin- that is the Bibles position from the beginning.

Prov. 14:8-9“The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way, but the folly of fools is deceit. Fools mock at sin, but among the upright there is favor.”

The Bible never teaches we become sinners but are sinners, those who sin.

Eccl. 7:20: “For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.”

Rom. 3:9-12 “both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one" (for only God is called good).

This is why John writes 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

What is man’s solution to this sin nature- try to be good and do good; have your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds- in other words humanism.

What is God’s solution to this sin nature? The Bible tells us that God gave us the way back into a relationship with him, to be born again- spiritually (Jn.3:3-7).

He gave us His son and the gospel to believe in to be restored.

Rom 10:10: “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” One must believe not only in their mind but their spirit their innermost being to be saved.

Being spiritually reborn the sin nature is not removed (until we are glorified) but we are given a new nature, a renewed mind that rule over it.

Rom 7:21-25 “I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

As believers we train ourselves to be more righteous and changed into the image of God’s son.

Col 3:9-10 “since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him”

Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.”

Eph 6:6 “not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart”

We now are willing to do what is right what s God’s will instead of being inclined to only do sin. This is why those who become Christian have a drastic change of life.

From Letusreason.org

 

[jamie]

What about John 2, where Christ says that on the "third day" He would rise? Never does Christ say "fourth day." Never does anyone in that passage believe, nor clarify, that Christ means rising on day 4. (John 2:19-22)

In post 100 I said, "He was in the tomb for three days and three nights, 72 hours."

Jesus was buried on Thursday: Friday is one day, Saturday is two days, Sunday is the third day.

Sunday is the first day of the week, which is the third day from Thursday.

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday is the third day.

Where's the problem?

 

[Epoisses]

You're welcome and it disproves the Friday crucifixion.

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, April 5, 30 CE.

OH! so from Wednesday to Sunday is 72 hours. GED people should not be allowed to post on these boards.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Do we become sinners when we sin or are we born sinful?

The main Scripture to understand on this topic is Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”

Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth” because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was the result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

Romans 5:18-19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam we are already born spiritually dead (separated from God) and die physically. 1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard. Gal 3:19 “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.” Rom. 5:20-21 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. Job 15:14"What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? Job 25:4How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?

We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being perfect to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath”

James 1:14-15 “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”

Sin comes from within man, it can be a reaction from what is outside a person or just what a person is thinking. John tells us we have an enemy on three fronts the world (which is fallen and under sin and the devils control) the flesh (which carries the sin nature) the devil (a personal angel that is sinful and influences mankind to love sin). Sin has its roots in the heart that influences the intellect and will and ultimately finds its expression through the body when we follow though with the desire (Prov.4:3; Mt.15:19-20; Lk.6:45; Heb.3:12 ; Jm1:14-15. The sin nature is the basis for sinful habits, it is not a single act but a process that begins in our heart. You can say the real source of mans problem is heart disease, our fallen human nature.

Jer. 17:9: "the heart is deceitfully wicked, ( incurably sick). Jesus taught that sin begins within us. Matt 15:18-19 Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

The sin nature affects the immaterial part of man, which consequently affects our outward actions. We sin because we have the nature of sin already in us.Mark is even more specific. (7:20-23) And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

The heart was representative of the innermost being of man. Jesus was affirming what Jeremiah wrote in 17:9-10: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”

David explained that his conception had sin involved. Ps 51:5: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” We as David have a sin nature when we are born, it is not something we learn afterwards. Our actions only express what our nature is. The sin nature is the basis for all sinful habits. Without understanding the source of sin one cannot understand nor give the solution correctly. The Law is not the answer, it points to the problem, it is diagnostic but it is not the cure.

The Bible explains that we are all slaves to sin except for one- Jesus, who did not inherit the sin nature because he was conceived without the aid of a man, formed by God in the womb of a virgin. This why there was a need to bypass the sin nature of man when He took on human flesh.

That is why it makes the point of Jesus being different from conception onward: 1 Peter 2:22: "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth”

I Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.”

There is none that do not sin John introduced Jesus as the ONLY one who can bring the solution, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29. Only Christ Jesus has the solution no other religion can deal with the fallen nature of man.

There are those who claim we are not sinful and think they have been born without sin, they do not understand what sin is and do not know how holy God is.

I Jn. 1:8: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”

All have sin and all do sin- that is the Bibles position from the beginning.

Prov. 14:8-9“The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way, but the folly of fools is deceit. Fools mock at sin, but among the upright there is favor.”

The Bible never teaches we become sinners but are sinners, those who sin.

Eccl. 7:20: “For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.”

Rom. 3:9-12 “both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one" (for only God is called good).

This is why John writes 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

What is man’s solution to this sin nature- try to be good and do good; have your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds- in other words humanism.

What is God’s solution to this sin nature? The Bible tells us that God gave us the way back into a relationship with him, to be born again- spiritually (Jn.3:3-7).

He gave us His son and the gospel to believe in to be restored.

Rom 10:10: “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” One must believe not only in their mind but their spirit their innermost being to be saved.

Being spiritually reborn the sin nature is not removed (until we are glorified) but we are given a new nature, a renewed mind that rule over it.

Rom 7:21-25 “I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

As believers we train ourselves to be more righteous and changed into the image of God’s son.

Col 3:9-10 “since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him”

Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.”

Eph 6:6 “not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart”

We now are willing to do what is right what s God’s will instead of being inclined to only do sin. This is why those who become Christian have a drastic change of life.

From Letusreason.org

Because you are completely void of "Pre-Destination" Lottery type beliefs and so forth... And because you believe "all" means "all"... I can see the validity of your stance.

1 Corinthians 15:54-56 ... Hebrews 2:14 ... John 12:31 and John 14:30 ... Romans 4:15 ... Romans 7:9 and Galatians 3:19-25 ... Ezekiel 18:20 ... and Romans 6:23 and so forth ... on and on give me a different perspective that rests in the Global impact of His Work ... through the DBR...

In these verses that I cited... the quick answer that saddles a person with sin... before they actually sin... becomes less valid as a scriptural pull from the verses you cited.

However... all theological effort recognized on our parts... you believe all means all and grace means grace... while "preordained before the foundation" binds to 2 Peter 3:9 ... while understanding Choice.

You are rapid to address carnal condemnation when you see it present in doctrine... and you embrace that there is a mystery to the limitless effect of Christ's DBR.

How do you maintain the full saddling of sin or "reprobation" of the world... while maintaining your global grace stance that binds to human response?

You most likely won't sway my stance... but I think your understanding in this matter would help me when I address "Hyper Calvinism".

Curious and without debate or engagement... desiring more tools to speak with in the old arsenal...

- EE

 

[jamie]

OH! so from Wednesday to Sunday is 72 hours.

Jesus died on Wednesday but I never said he was buried on Wednesday.

He wasn't.

 

[Epoisses]

Jesus died on Wednesday but I never said he was buried on Wednesday.

He wasn't.

What if he was crucified on Friday, he rose from the grave on Sunday or the Lord's day and the bible is right and you're wrong! Did you ever consider that possibility?

 

[jamie]

What if he was crucified on Friday, he rose from the grave on Sunday or the Lord's day and the bible is right and you're wrong! Did you ever consider that possibility?

Why don't you go by what is written?

 

[Epoisses]

Why don't you go by what is written?

I do, Jamie!

 

[jamie]

I do, Jamie!

Really? As Jesus was laid in the tomb what happened according to scripture?

 

[Epoisses]

Really? As Jesus was laid in the tomb what happened according to scripture?

Pulled some muscles rolling that big ole' rock?

 

[jamie]

Pulled some muscles rolling that big ole' rock?

Yeah, that's a good one. :carryon:

 

[Samie]

Of course I can explain it.

I am in Christ now because I believed and obeyed him and then he saved me.

You are saying that BEFORE you are in Christ, that is, while still NOT in Him or still apart from Him, you were able to do SOMETHING - believe and obey.

Your statement is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart from Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

 

[Samie]

. . .
So for a child to be a born sinner doesn't phase me in the least. It doesn't change something more that God looks at beyond what man looks at (the externals). It doesn't mean we have good hearts in the sense of Jeremiah 17:9, but rather that we receive the kingdom as a little child. Sin brings death. We are all partakers of both. No exceptions. But thanks be to God that that is not the qualification for entering into life! It is belief...receiving the kingdom as a little child.

You believe you were born in sin, hence, born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God. And to be In Christ, you did SOMETHING - received the kingdom of God as a little child.

Your wrong belief brought you to another wrong belief: while yet APART from Christ, you were able to do SOMETHING - received the kingdom of God. Why wrong? Because Jesus said apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

 

[jamie]

You are saying that BEFORE you are in Christ, that is, while still NOT in Him or still apart from Him, you were able to do SOMETHING - believe and obey.

Your statement is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart from Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

Jesus said he could do nothing and yet he believed and obeyed.

"I can of Myself do nothing." (John 5:30)

We must keep verses in their scriptural context.

 

[Samie]

Could you provide evidence, both Scripture and logic, that disproves my position?

Already provided. Your position already disproved.

You claim that I have misunderstood the Biblical reference to being born in sin. If so, how?

AGAIN, and yet again: It was Jesus Himself Who taught us in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son, that people do not begin life already lost, as what you are desperately trying to prove but can't because your position is diametrically opposite to the teachings of our Lord.

Could you demonstrate where the Bible is not in accord with my position?

Already given. Here again: Luke 15:1-24.

(know, that I will provide verses that support my position)

You can't, or else, the bible contradicts itself.

"Good to know that you know that. So why do you deny what Jesus said as plainly written in the Bible, brother? He plainly taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.

So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.

So why can't you believe what He taught and instead believe on Augustine of Hippo that people are born in sin and hence born NOT in Christ and therefore born already lost?": If we are in Christ at birth, then how does one go to hell?

By getting blotted out from the book of life. Rev 3:5; 20:15; 21:27.

Any other objections?