Are babies going to populate "hell"?

[glorydaz]

Rosenritter's avatar looks like a male to me.
(I watch a lot of anime. :chuckle






Are you saying you believe dead babies can grow up (my original statement) or are you saying that babies can grow up if you spare their life (Rosenritter's clarification)?

I'm saying neither of those things. We're talking about babies who die before they are old enough to choose evil over good. Are we not?

 

[glorydaz]

I take back what I said about heart, you still have more than enough venom in your serpent fangs.

And you can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory has heart but I think her eyes glaze over with misty tears so she may not see as clearly when she worries about children.

I do have a heart, and I do believe that the God is righteous, and just and full of mercy.

And there is more in Scripture to support my view on this than yours.

 

[Rosenritter]

You're thinking like a humanist here.

The book of life refers to the death of the body...not the spirit or the soul. Not the inner man at all, but the outer man.

Rev 3:5 KJV
(5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 13:8 KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 20:12-15 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:27 KJV
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Really Glory? Hell fire destroys body and soul. Those who have been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life are cast into hell fire. When Jesus says that hell fire destroys body and soul, why do you say it doesn't?

Mat 10:28 KJV
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Rosenritter]

And you can dish it out, but can't take it.

Yep, that will teach me not to say something nice about you in the future.

 

[glorydaz]

Rev 3:5 KJV
(5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 13:8 KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 20:12-15 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:27 KJV
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Really Glory? Hell fire destroys body and soul. Those who have been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life are cast into hell fire. When Jesus says that hell fire destroys body and soul, why do you say it doesn't?

Mat 10:28 KJV
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First, we're not talking about hell fire, are we? Please don't put words in my mouth.


And where is the verse you used regarding Moses? Which is what I was referring to.

Here it is.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.​

Moses was not offering to give up his eternal soul, but his physical life. You'll notice from your other quotes there are other books...not just one book. Rev 20:12-15 KJV There is a "book of the living", for instance. Psalm 69:28 It's an interesting subject you should investigate.

I've enjoyed much of what you've posted. A simple disagreement doesn't have to rule, does it? Your initial comment was condescending, and I responded to that. I'm hoping we can avoid that.

 

[glorydaz]

Psa 146:2-4 KJV
(2) While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

They have no thoughts or being, they will have thought and being when they are raised from the dead. They shall be clothed upon, but never found naked.

In context....things concerning this world. All the plans and schemes that princes have. They are no help and not to be trusted.

Under the sun....

 

[glorydaz]

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:​

Paul would never consider sleeping in the grave GAIN over the fruit of his labour here on earth for the Lord.

Paul had direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself.

 

[Rosenritter]

First, we're not talking about hell fire, are we? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I believe you said that the "book of life" was only regarding the first death. Out of all the references in the whole scripture, most of them are certainly concerning the ultimate question of life and death (eternal life vs. second death) and out of those that don't specifically state as such, they are perfectly compatible with that as well. None of the references are such that would say it wasn't concerning the second death.

In the context of the second death, we are speaking of destruction in hell fire. So if you said "it is only the body" you must mean the first death, from which everyone is once raised. Thus the connection. Is that enough to explain why I took it to that point right away?

And where is the verse you used regarding Moses? Which is what I was referring to.

Here it is.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.​

[\quote]

Glory, I not only assumed that you knew your own verse, I assumed you knew that I knew as well. It's one of the ones that gets used often, especially by me. I try to do what I can to cut down on text overflow when possible.

Moses was not offering to give up his eternal soul, but his physical life. You'll notice from your other quotes there are other books...not just one book. Rev 20:12-15 KJV There is a "book of the living", for instance. Psalm 69:28 It's an interesting subject you should investigate.

It seems to me that he was willing to give up his life, if I take interpret his words by every other instance of "book of life" in the scripture. Nothing in that would indicate that it was anything less, even with the one passage I missed (that you supplied, thanks, see below).

Psalms 69:28 KJV
(28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


People die left and right regardless of being righteous or wicked, but if the book of the living is for the righteous, that is perfectly in line with all the other references that we find in Revelation. Given the certain description there, I'd want to see at least one instance that was unavoidably "just the first life" to be able to properly consider it as having a generic dual usage.

I've enjoyed much of what you've posted. A simple disagreement doesn't have to rule, does it? Your initial comment was condescending, and I responded to that. I'm hoping we can avoid that.

My comment may have been slightly condescending, but it was also coupled with the best thing that I could say about someone that I might disagree with: I credited you with motivation of love and caring, and if you know me at all by now you also know I consider those the highest virtues and the summary of the law of God. Of all the reasons one could think of why someone might have motivation to disagree, is it hard to find any more charitable. Regardless, I apologize for the harsh counter reaction. That wasn't right either.

 

[Rosenritter]

In context....things concerning this world. All the plans and schemes that princes have. They are no help and not to be trusted.

Under the sun....

Does the phrase "under the sun" seem to be intended as a term of inclusion, or as a term of exclusion?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:​

Paul would never consider sleeping in the grave GAIN over the fruit of his labour here on earth for the Lord.

Paul had direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself.

Hammer, meet nail!

Verse 23 says it all.

If someone experiences "no time" (and I use that phrase lightly) between their death and when they are resurrected, then what is there to gain by dying right away? There would be plenty to gain while still alive, even though nothing would be lost by dying. Yet Paul here is saying he would rather be dead and with the Lord than to remain alive. And last I checked, Paul never showed any indication that he was suicidal...

 

[Rosenritter]

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:​

Paul would never consider sleeping in the grave GAIN over the fruit of his labour here on earth for the Lord.

Paul had direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself.

It would be personal gain, so yes, it applies. Regardless, even if I were to accept your conditions as correct for sake of argument, he cannot do any work on earth if he were floating around naked (without the spiritual body) in heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

Hammer, meet nail!

Verse 23 says it all.

If someone experiences "no time" (and I use that phrase lightly) between their death and when they are resurrected, then what is there to gain by dying right away? There would be plenty to gain while still alive, even though nothing would be lost by dying. Yet Paul here is saying he would rather be dead and with the Lord than to remain alive. And last I checked, Paul never showed any indication that he was suicidal...

You aren't realizing that your own protests work the same against your own argument. If someone dies and is immediately raised with Christ and the army of redeemed saints, that is actually a far better than having to bide time in a "naked" state and enduring knowledge that wickedness of the world still flourishes until Kingdom come.

Let's try again from your starting point. If someone dies and does not experience time (and I use that term precisely) then you have the gain of the glorious and triumphant resurrection with Christ at the greatest finale this world has ever seen. That's certainly brighter than any alternative I've heard offered here, certainly far more gain than the naked ghost state idea.

Isaiah 57:1-2 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
(2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

 

[glorydaz]

Does the phrase "under the sun" seem to be intended as a term of inclusion, or as a term of exclusion?

I'm not sure what you mean in that regard, but when I read Ecclesiastes, I am struck by how the entire book is written by a wise man concerning what he can literally observe and speculate on concerning life on this earth. This is a view of life as seen through human eyes. I say humanistic in may ways.

Ecclesiastes 2:11Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 2:17Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm not sure what you mean in that regard, but when I read Ecclesiastes, I am struck by how the entire book is written by a wise man concerning what he can literally observe and speculate on concerning life on this earth. This is a view of life as seen through human eyes. I say humanistic in may ways.

Ecclesiastes 2:11Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 2:17Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

What do I mean in that regard? The intent of the phrase "under the sun" is meant to be expansive and inclusive, indicating as broad a scope as we can imagine. It is not used in the sense of separating night from day, or of making the expansion smaller. Attempting to read it as if it is diminishing in scope is fighting against the intended context.

It so happens that the words of Solomon are also in agreement with those of David, and David also happens to be in agreement with Job, and Job also happens to be in agreement with Genesis. These aren't rogue speeches like Job's "fair weather" friends. These are inspired scriptures spoken as if they are true and correct.

Besides, if you read to the end, it hardly seems humanistic:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
(13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said on earth, "Love God, and to thy neighbor do likewise, ... Do this and you shall live." Jesus also spoke of the judgment.

 

[glorydaz]

It would be personal gain, so yes, it applies. Regardless, even if I were to accept your conditions as correct for sake of argument, he cannot do any work on earth if he were floating around naked (without the spiritual body) in heaven.

He admitted it was a hard choice....were it his to make. Yes, if he stayed here on earth, he could continue his work, but to be with the Lord would beyond wonderful. There is nothing to say we are naked until we receive our new spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Our Lord appeared in more than one spiritual body, didn't He?

 

[glorydaz]

What do I mean in that regard? The intent of the phrase "under the sun" is meant to be expansive and inclusive, indicating as broad a scope as we can imagine. It is not used in the sense of separating night from day, or of making the expansion smaller. Attempting to read it as if it is diminishing in scope is fighting against the intended context.

I'm not talking about separating night from day at all. Under the sun is quite basic. Simply what man can observe with his eyes and imagine. Man has always imagined there is a God somewhere, but what about heaven and hell? What about a spiritual body? What about the resurrection? What did they know and what did they guess? Man has surmised many things from the beginning.

It so happens that the words of Solomon are also in agreement with those of David, and David also happens to be in agreement with Job, and Job also happens to be in agreement with Genesis. These aren't rogue speeches like Job's faith weather friends. These are inspired scriptures spoken as if they are true and correct.

And yet they are not all true and correct. Many are simply man's attempts to understand God. Both Job and David were wrong more than once. Job claimed God didn't hear him. David learned by trial and error.

Besides, if you read to the end, it hardly seems humanistic:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
(13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said on earth, "Love God, and to thy neighbor do likewise, ... Do this and you shall live." Jesus also spoke of the judgment.

Yes, and man quite often finds God, doesn't he? So, I don't see your point?

 

[glorydaz]

You aren't realizing that your own protests work the same against your own argument. If someone dies and is immediately raised with Christ and the army of redeemed saints, that is actually a far better than having to bide time in a "naked" state and enduring knowledge that wickedness of the world still flourishes until Kingdom come.

Let's try again from your starting point. If someone dies and does not experience time (and I use that term precisely) then you have the gain of the glorious and triumphant resurrection with Christ at the greatest finale this world has ever seen. That's certainly brighter than any alternative I've heard offered here, certainly far more gain than the naked ghost state idea.

Isaiah 57:1-2 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
(2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Have you noticed you support your idea with Old Testament quotes when there was no Comforter?

 

[JudgeRightly]

You aren't realizing that your own protests work the same against your own argument.

Except they don't. I'll explain.

If someone dies and is immediately raised with Christ and the army of redeemed saints,

Then they will have some catching up to do on current events. Not that it matters in the long run, considering eternity lasts a long time...

But while that's a gain in and of itself, being with Christ, even more so is forming relationships with new acquaintances and reestablishing bonds between loved ones, and not however far down the line, but immediately.

that is actually a far better than having to bide time in a "naked" state

See GD's response above.

and enduring knowledge that wickedness of the world still flourishes until Kingdom come.

I'm sure that those in heaven are able to look down at Earth if they wanted to, but why focus on that when they could focus on interacting not only with God directly, but with loved ones and new friends who are in heaven?

Let's try again from your starting point. If someone dies and does not experience time (and I use that term precisely) then you have the gain of the glorious and triumphant resurrection with Christ at the greatest finale this world has ever seen.

Sure, they would, for all intents and purposes, "awake" to see God, and once all that's done, they would then begin to form relationships with those saved by God. It would be quite the gain indeed.

But wouldn't it be even better if they could have, upon their death, been greeted by God, not at the end of the world, but right after they die, and be able to start forming relationships with the other saints in heaven? That seems like far more of a gain than above...

That's certainly brighter than any alternative I've heard offered here,

Even brighter is the opportunity to form relationships previously unavailable because of the separation of death.

certainly far more gain than the naked ghost state idea.

Isaiah 57:1-2 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
(2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

I wasn't aware that people who do not experience time could walk around... :think:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:​

Paul would never consider sleeping in the grave GAIN over the fruit of his labour here on earth for the Lord.

Paul had direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself.

That verse in the above BOLD is proof that when we die we go directly to be with the Lord. I also believe that the unbeliever goes to Hell (Hades) until they are to stand before God and judged for their sins. Subsequently, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with Satan.