Many years ago (in the 1970's to be precise) I used to listen to 'Family Radio' while living in Orange County, California. The station was run/owned by a man named Harold Camping, a devout Calvinist. (Reformed) He taught that babies that died and weren't of the 'Elect,' went to Hell. (Hades) He also taught that if a Wife was being abused by her Husband, even to the point of death, she is obliged to stay with him. He later became infamous for predicting the end of the world in 2011. Which financially ruined some people and put others lives in turmoil and desperation. I believe if a Baby dies they go directly to be with the Lord. I believe that is according to the TRUE character of the God of the Bible.
Are babies going to populate "hell"?
- Thread starter GregoryN
- Start date
Many years ago (in the 1970's to be precise) I used to listen to 'Family Radio' while living in Orange County, California. The station was run/owned by a man named Harold Camping, a devout Calvinist. (Reformed) He taught that babies that died and weren't of the 'Elect,' went to Hell. (Hades) He also taught that if a Wife was being abused by her Husband, even to the point of death, she is obliged to stay with him. He later became infamous for predicting the end of the world in 2011. Which financially ruined some people and put others lives in turmoil and desperation. I believe if a Baby dies they go directly to be with the Lord. I believe that is according to the TRUE character of the God of the Bible.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
aww man
just looked for my epic "Let's Go Camping!" thread that I started when Harold kept updating his end-of-the-world predictions
it's lost to the ether
Rosenritter
New member
It says when if we are clothed upon we are not naked, but technically I would agree that nothing says we are naked until we received our new spiritual body, but on that could only be said correctly because we are not anything (not alive, no being) until we are raised anyway.
And no, the Lord did not appear in more than one spiritual body... the Lord appeared in different physical forms. God is a spirit, and as such his body is spiritual regardless of whether he takes physical form in one appearance or another. And while this supposing is mostly irrelevant, after his resurrection he may have had a different physical appearance or he may have simply appeared different in the eyes of those who saw him. Regardless of the means of the miracle, God would still be the same being of spirit, one body.
Rosenritter
New member
Eze 14:14 KJV
(14) Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Job and Daniel both agree that man sleeps in death, in peace, the righteous and the wicked, until the judgment. Both are prophets, both foretold the second coming of Christ, both are recorded by the Holy Spirit in scripture, of which all is given by inspiration of God and profitable for doctrine. Should you think to critique Job, how would you judge if he were incorrect on something? If you have where God said "Job, you were mistaken here" it is already written in the book of Job. God corrected a mistake in Job's attitude, he did not say he spoke in error elsewhere.
Regardless, when the prophets all agree and you discard one, and then another, and then more, pretty soon you have arrived where you will only accept a few pet passages divorced from the intended context of scripture. And for what gain? Even if you suppose Infant Salvation as prompted by your heart and concern over the youngest children, at what age is one lucky enough to qualify for this Universalist rebate? Where is your compassion for those of the next year, for the teenagers being tortured, and so on and so forth?
When the unified scripture, when allowed to be read consistently from beginning to end paints a solid picture of death as sleep, resurrection to life, and an end of eternal life or eternal destruction, and an age without end without pain or misery or any sort, why would you fight so hard for something else? All of your arguments against have been on the basis of assuming a certain premise, a premise that is only supported by setting aside the plain language most of scripture. It's a version of the "assuming the premise" fallacy that we've brought at the feet of Calvinism in another thread.
Rosenritter
New member
Pardon me, but would you please remind us who or what you think the Comforter is?
2Ki 2:9-10, 13-15
(9) And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
(10) And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
(13) He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
(14) And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
(15) And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
Psa 51:10-12 KJV
(10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Num 11:27-29 KJV
(27) And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
(28) And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
(29) And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Rosenritter
New member
Your argument is mostly summarized that they "need time to catch up with people..." but you also acknowledge that any time between now and the resurrection is insignificant (actually mathematically insignificant as well) because you are talking about a speck in eternity.
That may be a thought to consider, but we are directly told that we are all raised together. Daniel says this, Jesus says this, Revelation says this... Paul tells us that our reward is the resurrection (not a ghostly preexistence) and we are all made perfect together.
Heb 11:35-40 KJV
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
(36) And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
(37) They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(38) (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
God hasn't planned a half-way less-than-perfect state for us, he has prophesied the sound of the trumpet, a triumphant blast and awakening of the dead, not a subtle flute-melody or wind-chimes of souls trickling in the door into a giant waiting room, unable to enter the Kingdom of God because they are not yet changed. When God raises the righteous dead, they are changed in the twinkling of an eye, they ascend to meet God and then down to earth again, and that's when things start to get set right.
Awakening from that sleep to glory is not a loss of anything. It is the gain of everything and more precious than anything.
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Rosenritter
New member
And neither has anyone said differently. I think you misunderstand what is being discussed here.
genuineoriginal
New member
Rosenritter was pointing out that the idea of "all babies go to heaven" is dangerous because it means that aborted babies have a 100% chance to go to heaven but babies that are not aborted and grow up to the "age of accountability" have more than 50% chance of going to hell instead.
I mistakenly thought you were asking about the aborted babies growing up, but Rosenritter pointed out that you were asking about the babies that were not aborted growing up.
Then you claimed that Rosenritter was wrong.
What was Rosenritter wrong about?
genuineoriginal
New member
The "book of the living" is the same book as the "book of life".Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Moses was not offering to give up his eternal soul, but his physical life. You'll notice from your other quotes there are other books...not just one book. Rev 20:12-15 KJV There is a "book of the living", for instance. Psalm 69:28 It's an interesting subject you should investigate.
Names have been added to the book of life and blotted out from the book of life since the foundation of the world.
Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. |
The book of life is the list of those that God has chosen to grant eternal life to.
If your name is written in the book, you will receive eternal life at the Judgment.
If your name is not written in the book, you will be cast into the lake of fire at the Judgment.
If you turn from righteousness to wickedness, your name will be blotted out from the book of life, and you will be cast into the lake of fire at the Judgment.
Rosenritter
New member
I'd forgotten the reference for "book of remembrance" but I would also agree that it could only be the same book.
Rosenritter
New member
Do you think that God has called the saints for the primary purpose of forming relationships with each other? Those that are in that blessed resurrection are called kings and priests. What is the role of a king and a priest? Is it to socialize, or be served, or to serve others? If we were to follow the example of our King of kings, and listen to his words of what shall define who is greatest among us, what might that possibly suggest?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't think you know that for sure. I certainly don't. "A different physical appearance"? That could mean anything. :think:
So, do spiritual bodies eat food?
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Luke 24:37-43 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:37-43 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
What change came when He had ascended and was glorified?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
We die physically and go to be with the Lord. You can't say what we will be clothed with until we receive our resurrected bodies. Perhaps we'll be clothed with Christ Himself.
Rosenritter
New member
Just to make sure we're on the same wavelength, I'm referring to the multiple times that Jesus met his disciples after his resurrection when they didn't recognize him. One of the times they figured out it was him but it wasn't because they recognized his look. It may have been physical appearance or it might have been in their mind.
I figure it can eat food if it wants to eat. God ate the food that Abraham put in front of him on the plains of Mamre, and Jesus also spoke of drinking of the fruit of the vine when the disciples were in His Kingdom.
I'm not sure that there was literal change when he ascended between John 20:17 and Luke 24:38. I understand the "touch me not" vs. "touch me" as being an evidence of when he did ascend, matching the wave sheaf offering that always followed every Passover on Sunday morning, having a prophetic and fulfillment significance. Identifying himself as that offering would have been reason enough to say "touch me not."
I agree with that statement technically as it's written, but I suspect that isn't all you meant.. "Death physically" is "death really" and there isn't another type of death, only another instance of death. All symbolic uses of death depend on the original and true meaning existing in the first place. Are you able to show where the Bible defines death?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I suppose it's just as dangerous as claiming we are justified by faith and not by works.
We're accused of deliberately sinning....just because people don't understand the gospel of grace.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 42
1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 42
1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Rosenritter
New member
I suppose it's just as dangerous as claiming we are justified by faith and not by works.
We're accused of deliberately sinning....just because people don't understand the gospel of grace.
How many deliberate sins save a loved from from infinite agony? If I knew that a man was planning to kidnap and torment my child on its way to school in a couple weeks, and this is known for a certainty (no chance of mistake) is it murder to kill to defend your child? The law of Moses did not consider it murder if you killed a thief during the night. How much more is it justified to kill to save someone from eternal agony and escort them into life?
If your premise is correct, the slaying of infants or anyone beneath whatever that magical age might be isn't murder: it would actually be salvation.
John 14:6 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If your premise allows a killer to be the savior and cause of salvation who can force God to save people he otherwise wouldn't, that means the original premise is fatally flawed from the beginning. At that point its time to set aside that theory and allow another one to be tested.
Rosenritter
New member
So please show us what God specifically corrected Job for. It wasn't for anything he said about life, death, the resurrection, or the second coming.
Ezekiel 28:3 KJV
(3) Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Spoiler
glorydaz
Well-known member
I agree with part of what you say, but not all. There are distinctions between the book of the living, for example, and the Lamb's book of life. You really have to read each in it's context.
For instance....here we see those who are judged according to their works. I believe this will be at the White Throne Judgment. Rev. 20:11,12
We see "the BOOKS were opened". That tells me there is more than one book.
Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The Lamb's Book of Life, on the other hand, pertains to those who have their sins forgiven through faith in Christ Jesus....thus those who are saved by Grace, not by works.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nope. You're limiting God to man's understanding. That's why I brought up Ecc. to begin with.
What sin has a child committed that would separate him from God? Just answer me that, please.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I wasn't talking about the babies that were not aborted as Rosenritter thought. I'm sorry if I don't make myself as clear as I should.
Aborted babies have been robbed of the right to life. They have also been taken before they committed any sin against God. It's the wages of sin that results in death, not the wages of life, itself.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Therefore, children have that gift of eternal life because they have no wages to pay. You said something about them growing up. We are all individuals precious to God no matter what age we are. I don't think the old and decrepit, the deformed, or those without limbs will have a spiritual body that is anything but perfect and whole. That's what I mean about aborted babies. Their spiritual bodies will be whatever all the other spiritual bodies are....just what God planned for that person to be when he or she was conceived.
Every single child is formed in the womb....wonderfully made by our great God.