Are babies going to populate "hell"?

[glorydaz]

So please show us what God specifically corrected Job for. It wasn't for anything he said about life, death, the resurrection, or the second coming.

Ezekiel 28:3 KJV
(3) Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Spoiler

Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel agreed with "soul sleep" also. Well, actually that's God directly speaking to Daniel, so let's assume Daniel agrees also.

No, because sleep is what they called death all throughout Scripture. It's called sleep because it looks like they're asleep.

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.​

It's only the tent in which we dwell that we put off. We are more than a tent.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe you said that the "book of life" was only regarding the first death.

I thought I was specific concerning "His book" in the Moses quote, and the book of the living in Psalms.

In the context of the second death, we are speaking of destruction in hell fire. So if you said "it is only the body" you must mean the first death, from which everyone is once raised. Thus the connection. Is that enough to explain why I took it to that point right away?

Sorry, I wasn't speaking of the second death or hell fire. I think I was only talking about the various books.

Glory, I not only assumed that you knew your own verse, I assumed you knew that I knew as well. It's one of the ones that gets used often, especially by me. I try to do what I can to cut down on text overflow when possible.



It seems to me that he was willing to give up his life, if I take interpret his words by every other instance of "book of life" in the scripture. Nothing in that would indicate that it was anything less, even with the one passage I missed (that you supplied, thanks, see below).

Yes, his physical life.

Psalms 69:28 KJV
(28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

I think David is asking for the Lord to kill his enemies (blot them out of the book of the living), and certainly not written in another book with the righteous. That's my understanding.

People die left and right regardless of being righteous or wicked, but if the book of the living is for the righteous, that is perfectly in line with all the other references that we find in Revelation.

There is more than one book. The book of the living is for everyone who has ever lived. IMO

My comment may have been slightly condescending, but it was also coupled with the best thing that I could say about someone that I might disagree with: I credited you with motivation of love and caring, and if you know me at all by now you also know I consider those the highest virtues and the summary of the law of God. Of all the reasons one could think of why someone might have motivation to disagree, is it hard to find any more charitable. Regardless, I apologize for the harsh counter reaction. That wasn't right either.

Thanks for making that clear. I'll try not to jump to conclusions.

 

[Rosenritter]

I agree with part of what you say, but not all. There are distinctions between the book of the living, for example, and the Lamb's book of life. You really have to read each in it's context.

For instance....here we see those who are judged according to their works. I believe this will be at the White Throne Judgment. Rev. 20:11,12

We see "the BOOKS were opened". That tells me there is more than one book.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

The Lamb's Book of Life, on the other hand, pertains to those who have their sins forgiven through faith in Christ Jesus....thus those who are saved by Grace, not by works.

In Revelation 20:12, perhaps consider the word "books" could also mean "books of the law" or "records of deeds." One set of books condemns, but the other is of grace and mercy. There's more than one possible way to read "another book was opened" ...

a) The book was opened simply to be read, as it is a static book that was already finished, or
b) The book was opened, meaning that it is now opened and no longer closed, names can be written therein or blotted out

The passage with Moses already indicates that the book of life is not an immutable book. If names can be blotted out, they can also be written in.

 

[glorydaz]

In Revelation 20:12, perhaps consider the word "books" could also mean "books of the law" or "records of deeds." One set of books condemns, but the other is of grace and mercy. There's more than one possible way to read "another book was opened" ...

I wouldn't think books of the law since those were for while we are here on the earth. Book of Remembrance would be one of them, I'm thinking. That was a record of good deeds. Book of the Living being all those who ever lived. I can agree with you on this.

a) The book was opened simply to be read, as it is a static book that was already finished, or
b) The book was opened, meaning that it is now opened and no longer closed, names can be written therein or blotted out

Could be. Especially those who are judged according to their works at the Great White Throne.

The passage with Moses already indicates that the book of life is not an immutable book. If names can be blotted out, they can also be written in.

This one?

We see God is ready to kill these people....not necessarily blot them out of the book of life, but only the book of the living. I say this because of Exodus 32:13

Exodus 32:9-12 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.​

We see here the book is referred to as God's...which He has written.

Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.​

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope. You're limiting God to man's understanding. That's why I brought up Ecc. to begin with.

What sin has a child committed that would separate him from God? Just answer me that, please.

Psalms 51:5 KJV
(5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We don't start in a reconciled state. If God could have created a million million humans as zygotes and had perfect children with free will and perfect love, don't you think he would have done that? Because we can choose, we have the capacity to choose evil, and our natural inclination is to be selfish. God proved it to us with Adam. He proved it with Eve. He's proved it with the million million children ever born to date, as "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." As soon as we are able, we inevitably prove that our natural state is flawed.

Please allow me to use an example. If I handed you an Acme brand parachute and asked you to jump out of an airplane, you might question my judgment with "is it proven to be safe? Every Acme brand parachute ever used has come apart during use and caused a fatality!" Would you be satisfied if I said "But what has this individual parachute done to prove that it is defective? It hasn't failed yet, go ahead and trust your life in it!"

Every human ever born has proven to be sinful. Concerning the one-day old zygote that you say hasn't sinned; it just hasn't demonstrated our sinful nature yet. Give anyone a few years and the ability to cause great harm and see what happens. Even the best of us are prone to sin. Give any of us unconditional eternal life without a dedication and belief in our Savior and a few thousand years and watch what happens. The devil was was created perfect also.

 

[glorydaz]

Psalms 51:5 KJV
(5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We don't start in a reconciled state.

We start in an innocent state....fearfully and wonderfully made.

You're quoting David just after he had sinned with Bathsheba. He wasn't making a statement of fact, but of absolute hatred for what he had done. I'm worthless, hopeless, should never have been born.

I do wonder, though, since you just quoted about the righteous of Job, Daniel and Noah. You seem to want it both ways. There are verses that say the opposite as the one you cite.

Psalm 139:13-14 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.​

If God could have created a million million humans as zygotes and had perfect children with free will and perfect love, don't you think he would have done that?

If wishes were horses.... I wouldn't go near any parachute. :chuckle:

Because we can choose, we have the capacity to choose evil, and our natural inclination is to be selfish. God proved it to us with Adam. He proved it with Eve. He's proved it with the million million children ever born to date, as "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." As soon as we are able, we inevitably prove that our natural state is flawed.

What about righteous Job, and Daniel, and Noah? I'll ask again. What sin do unborn children have? What sin do small children have? What law have they transgressed?

Please allow me to use an example. If I handed you an Acme brand parachute and asked you to jump out of an airplane, you might question my judgment with "is it proven to be safe? Every Acme brand parachute ever used has come apart during use and caused a fatality!" Would you be satisfied if I said "But what has this individual parachute done to prove that it is defective? It hasn't failed yet, go ahead and trust your life in it!"

Every human ever born has proven to be sinful. Concerning the one-day old zygote that you say hasn't sinned; it just hasn't demonstrated our sinful nature yet. Give anyone a few years and the ability to cause great harm and see what happens. Even the best of us are prone to sin. Give any of us unconditional eternal life without a dedication and belief in our Savior and a few thousand years and watch what happens. The devil was was created perfect also.

What? That same "sinful nature" that Jesus had when he walked among us? We are human by nature living in a world of sin. If we leave this world of sin before we get the chance to commit sin, we are not sinners at all.

So, I think we need to confine our discussion to the facts....not hypotheticals. The fact is some children die before they ever choose evil over good. You will never find proof that those children have sinned....they are innocent. God hates hands that shed innocent blood, but He does allow it to happen nonetheless.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How many deliberate sins save a loved from from infinite agony? If I knew that a man was planning to kidnap and torment my child on its way to school in a couple weeks, and this is known for a certainty (no chance of mistake) is it murder to kill [that man (JR's insert)] to defend your child?

Yes. His blood would be upon you.

You don't have the right to kill criminals except when in defence of the innocent, and killing them should be used as a last resort.

Only the government has the authority to execute a criminal for conspiracy to murder. Citizens only have the right to protect up to and including lethal force, but only lethal force if absolutely necessary.

The law of Moses did not consider it murder if you killed a thief during the night.

It also says that if you kill the intruder during the day, his blood would be upon you. In other words, you would be guilty for killing him. The implication is that you would be able to discern his intent during the day because you could see what he has on him. Lethal force is only authorized as a last resort during the day. If a man entered your home during the night, you would be justified in grabbing your shotgun and shooting him to protect your wife and children, even if he dies as a result. During the day, however, if someone enters your home, if you grabbed your shotgun and shot him, and killed him, you would be guilty of killing him, because you should have been able to subdue him, because things are visible during the day, as opposed to at night when it would be hard to put things together in order to subdue the intruder.

How much more is it justified to kill to save someone from eternal agony and escort them into life?

It is never justified to kill the innocent.

If your premise is correct, the slaying of infants or anyone beneath whatever that magical age might be isn't murder: it would actually be salvation.

It is never justified to kill the innocent.

If you were told that by killing one baby in the womb, all suffering in the world would end, no child would go hungry, etc, would you do kill that child?

John 14:6 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It's because of Christ that an innocent baby does not go to hell.

If your premise allows a killer to be the savior and cause of salvation who can force God to save people he otherwise wouldn't, that means the original premise is fatally flawed from the beginning. At that point its time to set aside that theory and allow another one to be tested.

This is question begging, Rosey.

It assumes that God wouldn't save those innocent of any sin. God says if you live a perfect life, there is no law that can condemn you.

Babies who are killed in their mother's wombs have lived a perfect life, they have never broken any laws, have never sinned. They cannot be condemned for anything. Therefore, there is no reason for God NOT to bring them straight to Heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

We start in an innocent state....fearfully and wonderfully made.

You're quoting David just after he had sinned with Bathsheba. He wasn't making a statement of fact, but of absolute hatred for what he had done. I'm worthless, hopeless, should never have been born.

I do wonder, though, since you just quoted about the righteous of Job, Daniel and Noah. You seem to want it both ways. There are verses that say the opposite as the one you cite.

Psalm 139:13-14 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.​

If wishes were horses.... I wouldn't go near any parachute. :chuckle:




What about righteous Job, and Daniel, and Noah? I'll ask again. What sin do unborn children have? What sin do small children have? What law have they transgressed?



What? That same "sinful nature" that Jesus had when he walked among us? We are human by nature living in a world of sin. If we leave this world of sin before we get the chance to commit sin, we are not sinners at all.

So, I think we need to confine our discussion to the facts....not hypotheticals. The fact is some children die before they ever choose evil over good. You will never find proof that those children have sinned....they are innocent. God hates hands that shed innocent blood, but He does allow it to happen nonetheless.

The topic we are discussing now (that this has become) is also known as "original sin." Some people have some different ideas about what that means and what it entails, but at its most basic level the term means that we as humans (all of humanity through Adam's seed) are flawed and sinful creatures. It isn't a matter of pointing to a specific sin or a specific instance of sin, but rather that we are innately sinful.

Original sin does not apply to Jesus, as his nature was complemented by something other than our base wiring, specifically that He actually was our God and creator. And while God speaks of Noah, Job, and Daniel being righteous (perhaps more than others) this does not mean they were without sin... Job and Noah both have shortcomings recorded against them.

My position at this point is in complete agreement with standard orthodoxy. Jesus says that he who does not believe is already condemned, Paul says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We do not "earn" the right to eternal life by having a "zero scorecard" which would be Salvation by Works.

Do we have anyone else on this board that agrees with the Orthodox Christian position on original sin? [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] perhaps? I need to know how much focus I need to prepare so that we can come into agreement on this more fundamental concept.

 

[ok doser]

It is never justified to kill the innocent

/thread

 

[eleos]

Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (p.485).

(J.N.D. Kelly, "Early Christian Doctrines")

Or will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.

The unborn children and babies who are incapable of making a decision to receive Christ will be unconditionally saved. Although children have a sin nature (leaning towards sin) they have not yet sinned.

According to the Bible - What is sin? Transgression of the Law. What law? 10 Commandments. Babies are incapable of understanding the law therefore they can not be under the law and will be unconditionally saved.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Will unborn babies populate hell? Will people who have never ever heard the gospel go to hell?

I suppose the answer lies in what you honestly believe about God. If GOd's justice is anything less than perfect then hell could well be filled babies and people who have never ever heard the Gospel.

I believe that God's justice is truly perfect and the only people that will be in hell are those who truly deserve to be there.

 

[Rosenritter]

The unborn children and babies who are incapable of making a decision to receive Christ will be unconditionally saved. Although children have a sin nature (leaning towards sin) they have not yet sinned.

According to the Bible - What is sin? Transgression of the Law. What law? 10 Commandments. Babies are incapable of understanding the law therefore they can not be under the law and will be unconditionally saved.

1. The Ten Commandments were only one part of the Mosaic Law.
2. The Mosaic law only applied to the people of Israel, never to the Gentiles.
3. Sin still applies outside the Mosaic law.
4. Sin preexisted the Mosaic law.

Rom 2:11-12 KJV
(11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
(12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 5:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[eleos]

What is sin? Sin is Transgression of the law. Did Adam and Eve sin? Yes ... was this before the "mosaic law" ... yes.


1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 2:13-16
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Leviticus 4:2
“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,

Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 4:15
because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

1 John 2:4
He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I suppose it's just as dangerous as claiming we are justified by faith and not by works.

We're accused of deliberately sinning....just because people don't understand the gospel of grace.

I am accused of being a legalist and a Judaiser because people don't understand that God's Grace is never unmerited.

 

[Rosenritter]

I am accused of being a legalist and a Judaiser because people don't understand that God's Grace is never unmerited.

Then there are those who accuse others of holding unbiblical views when those others are reading the bible literally.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I agree with part of what you say, but not all. There are distinctions between the book of the living, for example, and the Lamb's book of life. You really have to read each in it's context.

The Lamb's Book of Life is the Book of the Living.
The book is a list of the names of the people that will be delivered and given everlasting life in the Resurrection.

Daniel 12:1-2 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

For instance....here we see those who are judged according to their works. I believe this will be at the White Throne Judgment. Rev. 20:11,12

We see "the BOOKS were opened". That tells me there is more than one book.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

Those other books are all recordings of each person's deeds (works) as the verse states.

The Lamb's Book of Life, on the other hand, pertains to those who have their sins forgiven through faith in Christ Jesus....thus those who are saved by Grace, not by works.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

Are you claiming that "those who have their sins forgiven through faith in Christ Jesus" are not worthy enough to be written with the righteous?

Psalm 69:28 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.​

The names of the righteous have been written in the Book of the Living since the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

The Book of the Living now belongs to the Lamb slain and includes those whom God has imputed righteousness because of their belief in Christ.

Revelation 13:8 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

The Jewish believers during the time of the writing of the New Testament would have known about the Book of the Living, since it is a Jewish religious belief based on scripture.

BOOK OF LIFE, or perhaps more correctly BOOK OF THE LIVING (Heb. סֵפֶר חַיִּים, Sefer Ḥayyim), a heavenly book in which the names of the righteous are inscribed. The expression "Book of Life" appears only once in the Bible, in Psalms 69: 29 (28), "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous," but a close parallel is found in Isaiah 4:3, which speaks of a list of those destined (literally "written") for life in Jerusalem. The erasure of a sinner's name from such a register is equivalent to death (cf. Ps. 69: 29, and the plea of Moses, Ex. 32:32–33). The belief in the existence of heavenly ledgers is alluded to several times in the Bible (Isa. 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 22:30; Mal. 3:16; Ps. 40:8; 87:6; 139:16; Job 13:26; Dan. 7:10; 12:1; Neh. 13:14 (?) – the exact meaning of some of these texts, along with I Samuel 25:29, however, is still in doubt), the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (e.g., Jub. 30: 19–23; I En. 47:3; 81:1ff.; 97:6; 98:7ff.; 103:2; 104:7; 108:3, 7; I Bar. 24:1), and the New Testament (e.g., Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Heb. 12:23). This belief can be traced to Mesopotamia, where the gods were believed to possess tablets recording the deeds and destiny of men. Examples are the prayer of Ashurbanipal to Nabû, the divine scribe, "My life is inscribed before thee," and of Shamash-Shum-ukîn, "May [Nabû] inscribe the days of his life for long duration on a tablet." The exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sefer Ḥayyim is found in a tablet from the neo-Assyrian period and may also be present in a Sumerian hymn. In the Mishnah (Avot 3:17), R. Akiva speaks in detailed terms of the heavenly ledger in which all man's actions are written down until the inevitable day of reckoning comes.

​

 

[GregoryN]

The unborn children and babies who are incapable of making a decision to receive Christ will be unconditionally saved. Although children have a sin nature (leaning towards sin) they have not yet sinned.

According to the Bible - What is sin? Transgression of the Law. What law? 10 Commandments. Babies are incapable of understanding the law therefore they can not be under the law and will be unconditionally saved.

So there is postmortem salvation?

 

[GregoryN]

I believe that God's justice is truly perfect and the only people that will be in hell are those who truly deserve to be there.

Then no one will be in hell forever, since no one deserves that.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Then no one will be in hell forever, since no one deserves that.

Scripture does not agree with you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Then no one will be in hell forever, since no one deserves that.

Scripture does not agree with you.

There is one that will be in hell forever being tormented day and night, and he does deserve it.

Revelation 20:10 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

On the other hand, humans that do not receive eternal life in the Resurrection will be swiftly and permanently destroyed.