Are babies going to populate "hell"?

[Rosenritter]

not necessarily

it could mean that the process used to reach the full conclusion is flawed, or that there's a factor not taken into consideration

to demonstrate:


...because your process assumes that her actions would naturally follow from your premise, and so your conclusion is that her belief is false

I would argue that since her belief is not false, there's something wrong with your process or your premise, or that your premise is based on incomplete information

one factor that you're not taking into account is the scriptural prohibition against murder

That's taken completely into consideration. If you understand love, you understand that true love is when one is willing to sacrifice his life for another. "Scarcely for a righteous man will one die" (Romans 5:7) yet we are given an example of Christ who laid down his life for us. Now look at Moses, who was willing to have his name blotted out of the book of life if it might save the children of Israel:

Exodus 32:31-32 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

"Yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die..." (Romans 5:7) and if someone really did care about the eternal fate of hundreds of children, and if they understood the sacrifice of Christ that gave his life for many, why wouldn't they take whatever punishment God might deliver upon them if it would save the souls of hundreds?

The scriptural account against murder was considered. The question that remains is twofold: first, does she really believe what she said? and second, does she love these unknown children enough to lay down her life for theirs and receive punishment in their place, her life for many?

The absurdity arises because the "babies go to heaven if they die" theory places man in the position to be a replacement savior for Jesus, where man is able to force God to save by circumstance where God otherwise would not, and the second absurdity where murder grants eternal life. Infant salvation is a totally false doctrine as thus demonstrated.

If you want to show it true somehow, you have to remove the demonstrated problem. Assume that I were to both BELIEVE Glory's doctrine and be willing to LAY DOWN MY OWN LIFE to save a thousand unborn children. It is reasonable to assume at least 10 of those unborn would be damned and forever tortured should they be allowed to grow up, at least under your belief.

So answer this: if they are murdered in infancy, do they suddenly NOT go to heaven, just because they were killed by someone with the intent of saving their souls? If ten of those children would "go to hell" if allowed to mature, how many "go to hell" if they are killed instead? Answer the numbers please.

 

[Rosenritter]

The grave is not heaven.

The baby will be resurrected as a baby when the dead are raised.

Was Adam created as a baby when he was one day old?

 

[Rosenritter]

I guess God told Paul a bit more. Haven't you heard? Man is not only body, but body, soul, and spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

My car is oil, metal, and fire, but it doesn't mean that any of it functions when the portions are dissolved from each other either.

Man's body was formed from the dust of the ground. The Scripture speaks of man with more than just a body of flesh. It speaks of a spirit formed within him.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

​

Did you notice whose spirit that belongs to? It isn't an individual spirit, it belongs to God who gave it. Just as in Genesis, where breath plus dust equals man. Yet in that same passage he told Adam he was dust. The spirit only gave Adam life. God takes back his own spirit which is the life.

Unless you are trying to use Ecclesiastes to say that all people go to heaven on death? Because it makes no distinction between good and evil there.

The clue is "under the sun". From what man can see and understand.

Here's a counter-clue: "under the sun" is a metaphor, it isn't actually about a literal sun or the daytime.

​

 

[ok doser]

... at least under your belief....

i don't believe i've stated my belief :idunno:

 

[GregoryN]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+12:16-23&version=ESV
2 Samuel 12:16-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

If the child had gone to heaven & David had assurance that he would join the child in heaven, no matter how he lived the rest of his life, no matter how many more premeditated adulteries & premeditated murders he committed, then why couldn't you also live as wickedly as you want & also go straight to heaven after you exit this life?

Scripture says ye must be born again to enter God's kingdom (Jn.3:1-8), so the unregenerated aborted must be saved postmortem in order to enter heaven. Therefore there is postmortem salvation.

 

[GregoryN]

When God flooded the earth, Noah's ark was not laden with a world population of heathen babies. They felt the wrath laid upon them for the crimes of their parents. Call it just, or call it unjust, but that's the way it is.

Wrath? More like a gift, beyond all gifts possible, if popular Christianity is true that such innocents always automatically get a "don't go to hell, but to heaven" card. IOW they are forced into heaven by irresistible grace, & given no choice in the matter, since Love Omnipotent evidently doesn't care about a free choice being made to love Him. Instead He forces His love upon these. If only all created beings were so lucky. It seems salvation is a matter of pure luck, if popular beliefs were true. But they're not.

 

[ok doser]

You guys are on the spectrum, aren't you?

 

[Rosenritter]

i don't believe i've stated my belief :idunno:

To be fair you haven't stated a belief here on this thread, but if memory serves from a couple years ago, I thought you were enthusiastically defending "eternal never-ending conscious torment" as the wages of sin. I apologize for my assumption if your understanding changed or if you never were of said opinion to begin with. It's possible I may have confused you with another username.

 

[Rosenritter]

If the child had gone to heaven & David had assurance that he would join the child in heaven, no matter how he lived the rest of his life, no matter how many more premeditated adulteries & premeditated murders he committed, then why couldn't you also live as wickedly as you want & also go straight to heaven after you exit this life?

Scripture says ye must be born again to enter God's kingdom (Jn.3:1-8), so the unregenerated aborted must be saved postmortem in order to enter heaven. Therefore there is postmortem salvation.

If David went to the child, then if we know where David lies, then we also know where the child is.

Act 2:29-35 KJV
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Joh 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Babies do not go to heaven when they die, because no one goes to heaven when they die. The Christian hope is in the resurrection of the dead through Jesus Christ who has gone before. Until then we can trust that God hasn't lost track of anyone and that he will raise them up in that day.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Babies do not go to heaven when they die, because no one goes to heaven when they die.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8).​

 

[Rosenritter]

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8).​

When does Paul say we are with the Lord?

1Th 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If Paul perished and his memory ceased to the degree that he was without knowledge that he was dead, regardless of how we observe the passage of time here and now, what is the next thing that Paul sees when he is resurrected? Who raises him?

 

[Rosenritter]

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8).​

Jerry, would you please clarify whether you understand Jesus to be the LORD Jehovah God, who created all things that were made? You left that hanging on another thread, but it ties into this subject as well.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, would you please clarify whether you understand Jesus to be the LORD Jehovah God, who created all things that were made? You left that hanging on another thread, but it ties into this subject as well.

Yes, I understand that the Lord Jesus is God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last (Rev.21:6-7; 22:12-13).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When does Paul say we are with the Lord?

Those in the Body of Christ who have already died physically are with the Lord Jesus now because they will be with Him when He descends from heaven and meets the living saints in the air:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess.4:13-14).​

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes, I understand that the Lord Jesus is God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last (Rev.21:6-7; 22:12-13).

If you have the understanding that Jesus is also the LORD of the Hebrew scriptures (the Lord of the Sabbath, Exodus 20;11, Mark 2:28, the Lord of Sabaoth, Romans 9;29, James 5:4) did you ever consider that there might be a special reason why both Jesus and Peter were very specific that absolutely no man has ascended to heaven, that David has not ascended to heaven, but yet Jesus ascended to heaven, was in heaven, and is in heaven?

Starting with the 22nd Psalm we read about the crucifixion, reading the 23rd Psalm we see the valley of the shadow of death. What comes next?

Psa 24:1-10 KJV
(1) <A Psalm of David.> The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

By identifying Jesus Christ as the only one who has ascended to heaven, it is also the recognition that he is our God. This is the reason why Justin Martyr told the Jew that there was an aberrant sect that was calling itself Christian, that claimed they went to heaven when they died, and that in so doing they blasphemed against the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and should he encounter them, not to call them Christian.

 

[Rosenritter]

Those in the Body of Christ who have already died physically are with the Lord Jesus now because they will be with Him when He descends from heaven and meets the living saints in the air:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess.4:13-14).​

Paul has already clearly stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that we remain flesh and blood, corruption, until we are changed at Christ's return. He does not say that those who are perished are with the Lord currently, but that the Thessalonians may hope to see their departed loved ones upon Christ's return, and not before. Should Paul have had any notion that their dead were currently happy and alive with Jesus currently, it is awfully strange that he should say nothing of the sort, and instead give them an entirely different comfort.

Jesus first raises the resurrected saints to meet him in the air, and then descends to meet the saints as they are changed and rise to meet them. This is made obvious already as Paul says that those dead are currently asleep.

 

[GregoryN]

Act 2:29-35 KJV
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


Joh 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The first verse refers to David's body. Re the second verse, people who died before Christ's resurrection went to Hades' torments or Abraham's bosom/paradise (Lk.16:19-31), not heaven. For more Scriptures refuting soul sleep see the thread about soul sleep:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?130515-Is-quot-soul-sleep-quot-a-Scriptural-doctrine

See also the King James a homo thread:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?130523-Was-King-James-likely-a-homosexual

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul has already clearly stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that we remain flesh and blood, corruption, until we are changed at Christ's return.

Paul speaks of three states of believers in regard to their bodies--the present flesh and blood body, being naked (being without a body) and with a body which is from heaven:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).​

At the rapture those who have already died physically will be with the Lord without bodies when He descends from heaven and they will put on new bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus before the living saints will also put on glorious bodies:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Paul says that the ones who are already dead physically will be brought with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven so they must be with the Lord Jesus in heaven. And that matches what Paul said here:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8).​

 

[Rosenritter]

Paul speaks of three states of believers in regard to their bodies--the present flesh and blood body, being naked (being without a body) and with a body which is from heaven:

Paul speaks of two states, both bodily. The present flesh and blood body is our current state, and our spiritual body from heaven is our second state. "Naked" or "unclothed" is not an applicable state, and no where does Paul say that we shall ever be found (or aware) in such a state. It's like using zero as a placeholder, it doesn't represent anything, or more accurately, it represents the lack of anything.

At the rapture those who have already died physically will be with the Lord without bodies when He descends from heaven ...

What part of "we shall not be found naked" did you not understand? You just defined naked as "without bodies" and in spite of Paul's objection twice stated to the contrary, you made up your own interpretation that we will be found without bodies.

Paul says that the ones who are already dead physically will be brought with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven so they must be with the Lord Jesus in heaven. And that matches what Paul said here:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8).​

Of which that passage says nothing to collaborate what you just claimed, as it is just as compatible with the previously stated truths that the dead have no awareness or being in death. The believer perishes and is arisen in his next thought, and though ages past, it is as Paul also said, that concerning the saints that have already gone before and perished, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (p.485).

Augustine is a heretic who brought a lot of false doctrines into Christianity.