ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

[immivik]

reasons to beleive

reasons to beleive

Isnt it interesting that

Jesus was crucified during the passover week.

His trial was held during a night court, when most Jewish people were preparing for the
Sabbath and His sentence was decided by the Jewish leaders since the Roman authorities did not want to condemn Him?

hung on a tree( a cross) while the Jewish people were eating thier passover lamb.

no more sacrifices (animal) are made for sin in the Jewish religion because of gross injustice?

are these things I have written all true? and if so arent they interesting when we concider that Jesus claimed to be the Lamb of God?

 

[brandplucked]

Is the Bible true? Have some of God's words been lost?

Is the Bible true? Have some of God's words been lost?

1 Samuel 13:1
Have some of God's inspired words been lost? The modern version proponents would have us believe that such is the case. We will consider one specific passage of Scripture to illustrate this point and will also hear from one of the NIV translators regarding a few others.

One of the hundreds of Scripture references called into question by today's bible translators is 1 Samuel 13:1. We read in the Authorized King James Bible: "Saul reigned ONE YEAR; and when he had reigned TWO YEARS over Israel, Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin; and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent."

"Saul reigned ONE YEAR; and when he had reigned TWO YEARS..." This is the reading of the KJB, the NKJV, Miles Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible of 1599, Daniel Webster's translation of 1833, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the Spanish Reina Valera of 1602 and 1960, the Italian Diodati version, the KJV 21st century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

There is a brand new Hebrew-English translation put out in 2003 called the Judaica Press Complete Tanach. It can be seen online here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255

In 1 Samuel 13:1 it reads as does the King James Bible: "Saul was a year in his reign, and he reigned two years over Israel..."

The Spanish Reina Valera 1960 reads: "Había ya reinado Saúl UN ANO; y cuando hubo reinado DOS años sobre Israel..."= KJB

Italian Diodati - Saulle avea regnato UN ANNO, e poi (then) dopo (after) aver regnato DUE ANNI sopra Israele..." = KJB

Luther 1545: Saul war ein jar König gewesen / vnd da er zwey jar vber Jsrael regiert hatte...

"Saul was king one year, and when he had reigned two years over Israel...= KJB

The Swiss Zürcher 1531 says exactly the same thing.

There are several bible versions like Darby's, the RSV, NRSV, ESV, and the New Scofield KJV, which actually read: "Saul was ____years old when he began to reign; and he reigned_____and two years over Israel." Then in a footnote they tell us "the number is lacking in Hebrew" and "two is not the entire number. Something has dropped out."

The ASV of 1901, which is the predecessor of the NASB, says: "Saul was (forty) years old when he began to reign; and when he had reigned TWO years over Israel..." Then in a footnote it tells us "The number is lacking in the Hebrew text, and is supplied conjecturally."

When we finally get to the NASB and the NIV we really get confused. The NASB of 1972 and 1977 reads: "Saul was THIRTY years old when he began to reign, and he reigned THIRTY TWO years over Israel." But the 1995 edition of the NASB has changed the 32 years to now read 42 years. The NIV says: "Saul was THIRTY years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel FORTY TWO years." So was Saul 30 or 40, and did he reign 2 years as the ASV tells us, or 32 as some NASBs have it or the 42 of the NIV?

Not only do the NIV, ASV and NASB all contradict each other, but they also contradict Acts 13:21 where we are told that Saul reigned over Israel 40 years.

Will Kinney

 

[chair]

Samuel 1:13 - the missing years

Samuel 1:13 - the missing years

Well, since I know Hebrew, teh whole list of traslations is irrelevant. The Hebrew (massoretic) text in fact seems to be misisng a number. It says Saul was ___ years old when he started ruling, and he ruled for two years. The two years may not be his entire reign, at least from this text, since the story goes on to say what he did after two years of being king.

The translations that filled in the missing number were doing just that - filling in a missing number.

Where the New Testament got the idea that he ruled for 40 years is beyond me. 40 is a magic number, an official generation. David ruled for 40 years.

In any case, the idea that the Old Testament is competely perfect is rather silly. I don't know the New Testament as well, but it has plenty of textual problems as well.

Joel

 

[brandplucked]

Are some of God's words missing?

Are some of God's words missing?

Well, since I know Hebrew, teh whole list of traslations is irrelevant. The Hebrew (massoretic) text in fact seems to be misisng a number. It says Saul was ___ years old when he started ruling, and he ruled for two years. The two years may not be his entire reign, at least from this text, since the story goes on to say what he did after two years of being king.

The translations that filled in the missing number were doing just that - filling in a missing number.

Where the New Testament got the idea that he ruled for 40 years is beyond me. 40 is a magic number, an official generation. David ruled for 40 years.

In any case, the idea that the Old Testament is competely perfect is rather silly. I don't know the New Testament as well, but it has plenty of textual problems as well.

Joel

Hi Joel. Thank you for at least attempting an answer. So, I guess according to your view, all Hebrew texts have been corrupted or lost in this place, and there is no such thing as a complete and 100% true Bible in any language. This is where Christianity is headed.

Here is the whole article I wrote about this verse. You and most "scholars" are mistaken. Nothing has been lost at all, except your faith in an inerrant Bible.

Here is why the KJB and many other bible versions are correct and fake bibles like the nasb, niv, esv are all wrong.

1 Samuel 13:1
Have some of God's inspired words been lost? The modern version proponents would have us believe that such is the case. We will consider one specific passage of Scripture to illustrate this point and will also hear from one of the NIV translators regarding a few others.

One of the hundreds of Scripture references called into question by today's bible translators is 1 Samuel 13:1. We read in the Authorized King James Bible: "Saul reigned ONE YEAR; and when he had reigned TWO YEARS over Israel, Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin; and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent."

"Saul reigned ONE YEAR; and when he had reigned TWO YEARS..." This is the reading of the KJB, the NKJV, Miles Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible of 1599, Daniel Webster's translation of 1833, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the Spanish Reina Valera of 1602 and 1960, the Italian Diodati version, the KJV 21st century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

There is a brand new Hebrew-English translation put out in 2003 called the Judaica Press Complete Tanach. It can be seen online here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255

In 1 Samuel 13:1 it reads as does the King James Bible: "Saul was a year in his reign, and he reigned two years over Israel..."

The Spanish Reina Valera 1960 reads: "Había ya reinado Saúl UN ANO; y cuando hubo reinado DOS años sobre Israel..."= KJB

Italian Diodati - Saulle avea regnato UN ANNO, e poi (then) dopo (after) aver regnato DUE ANNI sopra Israele..." = KJB

Luther 1545: Saul war ein jar König gewesen / vnd da er zwey jar vber Jsrael regiert hatte...

"Saul was king one year, and when he had reigned two years over Israel...= KJB

The Swiss Zürcher 1531 says exactly the same thing.

There are several bible versions like Darby's, the RSV, NRSV, ESV, and the New Scofield KJV, which actually read: "Saul was ____years old when he began to reign; and he reigned_____and two years over Israel." Then in a footnote they tell us "the number is lacking in Hebrew" and "two is not the entire number. Something has dropped out."

The ASV of 1901, which is the predecessor of the NASB, says: "Saul was (forty) years old when he began to reign; and when he had reigned TWO years over Israel..." Then in a footnote it tells us "The number is lacking in the Hebrew text, and is supplied conjecturally."

When we finally get to the NASB and the NIV we really get confused. The NASB of 1972 and 1977 reads: "Saul was THIRTY years old when he began to reign, and he reigned THIRTY TWO years over Israel." But the 1995 edition of the NASB has changed the 32 years to now read 42 years. The NIV says: "Saul was THIRTY years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel FORTY TWO years." So was Saul 30 or 40, and did he reign 2 years as the ASV tells us, or 32 as some NASBs have it or the 42 of the NIV?

Not only do the NIV, ASV and NASB all contradict each other, but they also contradict Acts 13:21 where we are told that Saul reigned over Israel 40 years.

Dr. Daniel Wallace, of Dallas Theological Seminary, is creating his own personal bible version called the NET Bible. It frequently departs from the Hebrew texts. He has come up with a reading in 1 Samuel 13:1 that is even different than all the others.

His NET bible reads: "Saul was THIRTY (1- footnote) years old when he began to reign; he ruled over Israel for FORTY (2 - footnote) years."

Then in the footnote "today's most eminent textual scholar" tells us: The Hebrew Masoretic Text does not have “thirty.” A number appears to have dropped out of the Hebrew text here, since as it stands the MT (literally, “a son of a year”) must mean that Saul was only one year old when he began to reign! Although most LXX mss lack the entire verse, some Greek mss have “thirty years” here (while others have “one year”). The Syriac Peshitta has Saul’s age as twenty-one... The present translation (“thirty”) is a possible but admittedly uncertain proposal.

Regarding the change from "when he had reigned TWO years" to "he ruled over Israel for FORTY years", the good Doctor says: The MT has “two years” here. If this number is to be accepted as correct, the meaning apparently would be that after a lapse of two years at the beginning of Saul’s reign, he then went about the task of consolidating an army as described in what follows."

(Note: What a shocker! If we follow what the Hebrew text says, the King James reading is correct! But Dr. Wallace can't seem to accept this.) So he continues:

" But if the statement in v. 1 is intended to be a comprehensive report on the length of Saul’s reign, the number is too small. According to Acts 13:21 Saul reigned for forty years. The NIV, taking this forty to be a round number, adds it to the “two years” of the MT and translates the number in 2 Sam 13:1 as “forty-two years.” While this is an acceptable option, the present translation instead replaces the MT’s “two” with the figure “forty.” Admittedly the textual evidence for this decision is weak, but the same can be said of any attempt to restore sense to this difficult text. The Syriac Peshitta lacks this part of v. 1."

There you have it - the fevered ramblings of America's foremost Evangelical textual scholar. Small wonder that 85 % of the students in America's largest Evangelical seminary say they do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

Have some of God's words been lost or dropped out of the text? Or has God been faithful to His promises to preserve His words here on this earth till heaven and earth pass away? Jesus said in Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." This is either a true statement or Jesus lied to us. The modern version translators imply that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't really mean what He said.

One of the members of the NIV translation committee has written a book called The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. His name is Gleason Archer and his book is highly recommended by Hank Hanegraaff, 'the Bible answer man'. Regarding this passage in 1 Samuel 13:1 Mr. Gleason tells us on page 171 "the Masoretic text has lost the number that must have been included in the original manuscript." Gleason Archer goes on to tell us: "the REIGNED of the KJV is not justifiable, for the Hebrew text does not say "reigned" but "he became king".

Now this is interesting. Here is a scholar telling us emphatically that "reigned" is not justifiable, yet the NASB has "reign" and has translated this same word as reign or reigned some 144 times and even his own NIV has translated this word malak as "reign or reigned" 117 times.

Gleason Archer not only believes the numbers have been lost here in 1 Samuel 13 but also on page 39 of his book he tells us that 15 words have been lost in the Hebrew text of Psalms 145 that are restored to us in the Greek Old Testament version.

The RSV, ESV, NIV and Holman Standard have added these 15 words to the Old Testament from the Greek LXX. However, the Revised Version, the American Standard Version, the NASB and the NKJV have not added these extra words. In Psalm 145:13 we read: "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations."

The extra fifteen words that supposedly were lost but now are finally restored to us in the NIV, ESV and Holman are "The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made." You won't find these added words even in the 1995 update version of the NASB, so I guess not all scholars share Mr. Gleason's views. In fact, not even the other NIV translators apparently share his views either.

In the very next chapter of 1 Samuel in verse14:41, Mr. Archer tells us on page 40 of his book that 26 Hebrew words have been passed over by the Jewish scribes but have been restored to us by way of the Greek LXX. These 26 added words are found in the liberal RSV and in the brand new ESV versions, but not even the NIV or the Holman Standard include them. See how consistent these "latest findings" of modern scholarship are? If Mr. Archer is so fond of the Greek LXX, why did he not take note of the fact that the Greek Septuagint entirely omits 1 Samuel 13:1 altogether? Thus he could have easily disposed of the whole problem by saying it never was part of the inspired text at all.

It is a marvel to behold when a Bible corrector like the NIV's Gleason Archer writes a book telling us that some of God's words have been lost, but they are restored to us in some other version, though we shouldn't always follow that other version, and not even the rest of his fellow NIV translators adopt his conclusions. And this is a book recommended by Hank Hanegraaff, who himself uses the NASB, which differs from the NIV in hundreds of places. Such is the confusion and unbelief foisted upon the Church by today's "science of textual criticism.”

So, how do we explain the passage in 1 Samuel 13:1? Have God's words been lost in the shuffle, as Gleason Archer and Hank Hanegraaff tell us? Absolutely not. The King James Bible is 100% correct. What the NASB, NIV translators missed here is a Hebrew idiom. Nothing has been lost; it has been there all the time.

The Hebrew text in question translated in the KJB and many other versions as "ONE year" consists of two words, ben (Strong’s # 1121) and shanah (Strong’s #) 8141. The "problem" is how the word ben is translated. Hebrew words often have multiple meanings, depending on the context. The NIV and NASB concordances tell us they have translated this one word as: "age, aliens, arrow, afflicted, beast, bought, child, bulls, calf, builders, breed, father, fellow, foal, fools, foreigner, grandchildren, heir, kids, lambs, low, man, mortal, nephew, offspring, old, ONE, ONE born, ONES, opening, overnight, people, scoundrels, son, troops, warriors, whelps, young, and youths."

Both the NASB and the NIV have translated this same Hebrew word in other places just as it stands in the KJB's "ONE" year. In Leviticus 12:6 we read: "she shall bring a lamb of the FIRST YEAR for a burnt offering.” The NASB reads: " a ONE year old lamb,” the NIV "A year old lamb.” In Exodus 29:38 "Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the alter; two lambs of the FIRST YEAR day by day continually." The NASB has: "a lamb of the FIRST year" while the NIV has: " she is to bring A year old lamb.”

In 2 Samuel 17:10 the NASB reads: "Even the ONE (ben) who is valiant...will lose heart." In Genesis 15:3 both the NASB and NIV read: "ONE (ben) born in my house is my heir." The same thing occurs twice in Nehemiah 3:8 and 31 where the NASB, NIV have "ONE of the perfumers...ONE of the goldsmiths", and the NIV has "ONE of the wise men" in Isaiah 19:11. Again, both the NASB and NIV translate this same word ben as ONES in Zechariah 4:14 "Then said he, These are the two anointed ONES, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Other well known Bible commentators, who certainly are not King James Only, also agree with the KJB reading in 1 Samuel 13:1. Here is what a few of them have to say.

Matthew Henry

" But we take it rather, as our own translation has it, Saul reigned one year, and nothing happened that was considerable, it was a year of no action; but in his second year he did as follows -1. He chose a band of 3000 men, of whom he himself commanded 2000, and his son Jonathan 1000, v. 2. The rest of the people he dismissed to their tents."

Jamieson, Faussett & Brown

Saul reigned one year-- The transactions recorded in the eleventh and twelfth chapters were the principal incidents comprising the first year of Saul's reign; and the events about to be described in this happened in the second year.

John Gill

"The sense Ben Gersom gives is best of all, that one year had passed from the time of his being anointed, to the time of the renewal of the kingdom at Gilgal; and when he had reigned two years over Israel, then he did what follows, chose 3000 men. In the first year of his reign was done all that is recorded in the preceding chapter; and when he had reigned two years, not two years more, but two years in all, then he did what is related in this chapter."

So you see, God has not lost any of His words at all. The modern bible translators set themselves up as the final authority and they want you to come to them, buy their books and their "bibles" so you too can doubt God's ability to preserve His inspired words. No thank you, Mr. Archer. I choose to believe God and His infallible words as found in the King James Bible.

Will Kinney

 

[Turbo]

Hey brandplucked, don't you have about eight dozen other threads devoted to KJV-only topics? That is not the topic of this thread. Take it someplace else, please.

 

[brandplucked]

Are there contradictions in the Bible?

Are there contradictions in the Bible?

Hey brandplucked, don't you have about eight dozen other threads devoted to KJV-only topics? That is not the topic of this thread. Take it someplace else, please.

Hi Turbo, this thread originally dealt with some apparent contradictions in "The Bible" (not identified), and the first brother to open the discussion was doing a good job of trying to explain some Messianic prophecies. I then pointed out that not all bible versions teach the same things about Messianic prophecies, and that not all apparent contradictions can be reconciled, simply because not all bibles read the same in many places.

There is only one true Holy Bible without error, and it is the King James Bible. All others are imposters.

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Will

 

[chair]

inerrant bible

inerrant bible

Will,

Thanks for your response.

I have read your article again. You have made a few glaring assumptions. And you are just plain wrong.

1. "So, I guess according to your view, all Hebrew texts have been corrupted or lost in
this place, and there is no such thing as a complete and 100% true Bible
in any language."

Whoa! I didn't say that all Hebrew texts have been corrupted. I am only sayiing that there are some mistakes and textual problems in the text.

On the other hand, I do say very clearly: "there is no such thiing as a complete and 100% accurate bible in any language."

This is true in Hebrew, and even more so ( and by definition) in the translations.

2. "Nothing has been lost at all, except your faith in an inerrant Bible."

I can't lose a faith I never had.

3. You seem to be assuming, throughout your discussion, that I am Christian. I am not!

You have a strange iinsistance that a late translation of the Bible is completely accurate, when even the Hebrew version has problems. I don't understand where you get such a silly idea. I really don't. The Hebrew Bible nowhere claims to be perfect (or God-given, for that matter).

You seem to be basing quite a bit on the following verse:
Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

Well,
a) I am not Christian, so this is of little interest to me
b) the quote from Matthew is not speaking of the Bible per se.

The whole discussion of the various translations and evangelists in meaningless to me. I read the original Hebrew text. I know what the word "ben" means in its context - yes, better than somebody who investigates 15 different translations.

By the way, I never claimed to be a scholar - so insulting me by calliing me a "scholar" is just a cheap shot. Let's stick to the discussion itself.

The idea that the KJV is the perfect word of God is just silly. A late translation, conveniently into English (talk about ethnocentric), of a text that even in its original Hebrew form is far from error free.

We haven't even mentioned the plain inconsistencies in the Bible- both New and Old Testament. (What exactly was Jesus' lineage, for example)

Translation is never perfect, and always involves some interpretation.

In short - take a good look at the facts, keep your insults out of this, and try to be realistic.

Joel

 

[rev_gar]

the just must live by faith

the just must live by faith

The following is the first half or so of Pslam 22, written approximately 1000 years before Christ was born. Also, it should be noted that the first historical record of crucifixion is from the 6th century B.C., so it is likely that this psalm was written hundreds of years before anyone was ever crucified.

Studying this Psalm was one of the final steps that convinced me that the Bible is true, and that Jesus is who He says He is. I can think of no other rational conclusion, given the content of this psalm. To anyone who is unsure whether the Bible truly is the Word of God or simply a collection of books written by men, please take a few minutes to read this study of Psalm 22.

In Christ,
Turbo



(Passages from the Gospels are inserted in a smaller font, echoing the portion of the psalm that is above them, particularly the bold phrases. All scriptures quoted are from NKJV)

Psalm 22:
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 "He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

Matthew 27:39-43
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, "I am the Son of God."'

Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

16 For dogs* have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;

Matthew 27
2 And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?"
Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." 12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
13 Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?" 14But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.

26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.

17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.

John 19:33
But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

Matthew 27:35
Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."

Mark 15:24
And when they crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots for them to determine what every man should take.

Luke 23:34
Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
And they divided His garments and cast lots.

John 19:24
They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."
Therefore the soldiers did these things.

19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

My precious life from the power of the dog*. (Roman Empire)

Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 23:24
So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested.

21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!


(* “dog” is a pejorative term for Gentile. See Mat 15:22-28; also Rev. 21:12, 22:15; Ps. 59:5-7,13-15, 1 Sam. 17:43, and 2 Ki. 8:13)

i'm new to this forum but not to the word of God and the bible tells us that the just must live by faith. your belief should be your faith in Christ and the word of God. take his word by faith, it is onlythe carnal minded man who looks for evidences that christ and the word of God is real. you know what the word of god has done in your life. and his word shall not come back void, if you stand on God's word you will never have to look for proof it will already show itself!

 

[epistemaniac]

i'm new to this forum but not to the word of God and the bible tells us that the just must live by faith. your belief should be your faith in Christ and the word of God. take his word by faith, it is only the carnal minded man who looks for evidences that christ and the word of God is real. you know what the word of god has done in your life. and his word shall not come back void, if you stand on God's word you will never have to look for proof it will already show itself!

it's not that you have to look for evidences for the existence of God, one can't help but to see the evidence all around them... Ps 19 and Romans 1:18ff

but that being said, John the Beloved said ;

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(Joh 20:30-31 esv)

So John says that the signs were done and recorded so that you might believe, so its not wrong to point people to solid reasons for belief, after all, prior to being saved, everyone's mind was "carnal".

another interesting way to look at this subject comes from Alvin Plantinga... he says that belief in God is "properly basic", that is, it is belief in something that one takes to be irrational to not believe even though it can't be touched or seen etc... the human mind falls into this category, in most cases we really do believe that the person we are speaking to has a mind, though we may have never seen it, even if it is a person we have never talked to at all, say, someone merely walking down the street... even though we have never seen them, we believe that they have minds.... Plantinga says that for the person who's brain and cognitive activity is functioning properly, this person will believe in God... it is only those who do not believe in God who's mind is not working properly.... while truth is not determined by numbers, it does seem rather odd that the majority of people who have ever lived have believed in God, so it is the person who denies this fact who ought to be able to state/prove why this is the case, who ought to prove to me that there is no God, not the other way around. It is a common believe that the one doing the asserting who has the obligation to prove to others why they believe what they believe... so atheists often put the burden of proof on the Christians shoulders.... but there is no reason whatsoever why this ought to be the case.... Who made this rule up and carved it into stone? Where is the empirical proof that demands that I must be the first one to empirically prove my position? One such belief system, logical positivism, says that it is immoral to believe anything without proper evidence. One person (Clifford) who held this belief failed to realize that when this criterion for knowledge was applied to his own theory of knowledge, it itself failed to meet the test, where the criteria for proofs under discussion were generally metaphysical in nature.

That is, Clifford's (and to this day, many many others) continue to maintain that unless something is empirically verifiable, one should not believe it as being true. Also, not only did we just note that this statement itself is not empirically verifiable, it also commits the Category Fallacy. This is because the Logical Positivists (and all other Naturalists and Materialists) start out, a priori, with the unproven presupposition, namely that something can be “true” if and only if it can be empirical verifiable. But this is erroneous at the start because it is a position that starts out saying that only the physical can be proven to be true, all the while we are discussing metaphysical issues! Thus all discussions on metaphysics are ruled out before we even begin the discussion, because anything immaterial or metaphysical are not the sorts of things that tests for physical objects can be applied to or used for testing purposes regarding whether or not something is true or false. Its taking a theory on truth verification that is designed to test only for truthfulness and the verification of the physical, then taking this theory and then attempting to apply it to the immaterial, and complaining that that which is being tested fails!!!!

blessings

 

[Poly]

i'm new to this forum but not to the word of God and the bible tells us that the just must live by faith. your belief should be your faith in Christ and the word of God. take his word by faith, it is onlythe carnal minded man who looks for evidences that christ and the word of God is real. you know what the word of god has done in your life. and his word shall not come back void, if you stand on God's word you will never have to look for proof it will already show itself!

We know that God enjoys being "figured out" by the many parables He gives in hopes that people will do, just this. He likes for His children to discover the evidence of the things we hope for but have yet to see and the evidence that He Is.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

[chair]

while truth is not determined by numbers, it does seem rather odd that the majority of people who have ever lived have believed in God, so it is the person who denies this fact who ought to be able to state/prove why this is the case, who ought to prove to me that there is no God, not the other way around.

A rather odd statement. Though it is likely that the majority of people who have ever lived beieved in God, it is extremely likely that they did nnot believe in the Christian god, which turns this arguement on its head.

That is, Clifford's (and to this day, many many others) continue to maintain that unless something is empirically verifiable, one should not believe it as being true. Also, not only did we just note that this statement itself is not empirically verifiable, it also commits the Category Fallacy. This is because the Logical Positivists (and all other Naturalists and Materialists) start out, a priori, with the unproven presupposition, namely that something can be “true” if and only if it can be empirical verifiable. But this is erroneous at the start because it is a position that starts out saying that only the physical can be proven to be true, all the while we are discussing metaphysical issues! Thus all discussions on metaphysics are ruled out before we even begin the discussion, because anything immaterial or metaphysical are not the sorts of things that tests for physical objects can be applied to or used for testing purposes regarding whether or not something is true or false. Its taking a theory on truth verification that is designed to test only for truthfulness and the verification of the physical, then taking this theory and then attempting to apply it to the immaterial, and complaining that that which is being tested fails!!!!

blessings

Thhings can be "true" without us being able to prove that they are true. In these circumstances, though, one cn just as easily believe them to not be true.

Metaphysics of the type that we are discussing here ought to be provable, or perhaps proven that they are untrue. We are talking abotu a religion that doesn't make just vague claims about the deity. Christianity makes very specific claims about the interaction of god with physical reality. Christian belief is not, therefore, really "immaterial" at all. Thus, the material claims of Christianity can be subjected to rational scrutiny.

Joel

 

[Is 1:18]

it's not that you have to look for evidences for the existence of God, one can't help but to see the evidence all around them... Ps 19 and Romans 1:18ff

Hey e-man,
Great to see you are here as well. :wave: I hope you have been keeping well. BTW, I agree with your statement....

God Bless mate.

 

[industry]

what's interesting is there are many prophecies in the Old Testament about Christ. which make me think, God knew that there would be people like me who have questioned a lot of things about God and the Bible. This literally proves that Christ was who the Bible says he is. Which makes me think, God is great.

 

[seekinganswers]

Missing Thread

Missing Thread

Knight (or whichever moderator is involved),

May I ask where the thread entitled "Homosexuality: Does the Church have anything to stand on" went? It disappeared as I was trying to submit a response to one of the posts. Was there something inappropriate discussed on the thread, and if there was why did you not simply remove the offending post instead of removing the entire thread?

I have search for it on other parts of the site (thinking that maybe it was simply deemed inappropriate for the "Religion" section) but I have been unable to find it again.

I understand that there were some topics that were discussed that may not have been pleasant for some to hear (although I myself have not at all gone into detail on those topics), but just because something is not pleasant to discuss does not mean we ought to avoid discussing it. If you would have required a warning on the post I would understand, but I must point out that much more graphic descriptions of homosexual acts are clearly stated on Clete's thread. No where did I state that I was in agreement with such activity. I simply was trying to broach on the subject with those who either agreed or disagreed with me in a way that would allow for dialogue (because one can disagree with grace, instead of simply silencing the other out of disagreement; to use one's influence to silence the other unillaterially is not a logical approach to an argument, it simply illustrates an imbalance of power).

Clearly I was not the one who offended others seeing how I am still given the privilege to post on TOL, but I'm curious as to what happened. Please, will someone respond.

Peace,
Michael

 

[kmoney]

Bump for Michael.

And it's good to know that when a thread is deleted the starter of the thread is notified.


PS: Michael, this thread isn't really the place to put a question like this. The "Ask Knight" thread might be more appropriate.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12147&page=1

 

[malachi151]

The following is the first half or so of Pslam 22, written approximately 1000 years before Christ was born. Also, it should be noted that the first historical record of crucifixion is from the 6th century B.C., so it is likely that this psalm was written hundreds of years before anyone was ever crucified.

Studying this Psalm was one of the final steps that convinced me that the Bible is true, and that Jesus is who He says He is. I can think of no other rational conclusion, given the content of this psalm. To anyone who is unsure whether the Bible truly is the Word of God or simply a collection of books written by men, please take a few minutes to read this study of Psalm 22.

In Christ,
Turbo



(Passages from the Gospels are inserted in a smaller font, echoing the portion of the psalm that is above them, particularly the bold phrases. All scriptures quoted are from NKJV)

Psalm 22:
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 "He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

Matthew 27:39-43
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, "I am the Son of God."'

Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

16 For dogs* have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;

Matthew 27
2 And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?"
Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." 12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
13 Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?" 14But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.

26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.

17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.

John 19:33
But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

Matthew 27:35
Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."

Mark 15:24
And when they crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots for them to determine what every man should take.

Luke 23:34
Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
And they divided His garments and cast lots.

John 19:24
They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."
Therefore the soldiers did these things.

19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

My precious life from the power of the dog*. (Roman Empire)

Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 23:24
So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested.

21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

(* “dog” is a pejorative term for Gentile. See Mat 15:22-28; also Rev. 21:12, 22:15; Ps. 59:5-7,13-15, 1 Sam. 17:43, and 2 Ki. 8:13)

Ironically, this is actually one of the biggest reasons not to believe at all.

The entire story of Jesus is constructed from prior scriptures. This is detailed here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#3

Birth of Jesus:
T1: Matthew 1:2 - Isaiah 7:14 (based on Greek mistranslation):
"Then Isaiah said, 'Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.' "(Note: This is a mistranslation that will be addressed in the next section.)
T2: Matthew 1 - Isaiah 9:6:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Born in Bethlehem:
T1: Matthew 2:5 - Micah 5:2:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

Escape to Egypt:
T1: Matthew 2:15 - Hosea 11:1:
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."

Massacre of the Innocents:
T1: Matthew 2:17 - Jeremiah 31:15
T2: Matthew 2:16 - Exodus 1:22
"Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born to the Hebrews you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live.""

The Return to Nazareth:
T1: Matthew 2:23 - Judges 13:5:
"because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines." (Note: Jesus was called a Nazorean in the gospels because he supposedly lived in a place called Nazareth, but this refers to Samson being from a Nazirite sect. The author himself made the reference however)

John the Baptist Prepares the Way:
T1: Matthew 3:3 - Isaiah 40:3:
"A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD ;make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
T3: Matthew 3:4 - 2 Kings 2:8:
"They replied, 'He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist.' The king said, 'That was Elijah the Tishbite.'" (Note: Matthew 3:4 says: "John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist." Later in the story Jesus indicates that John was Elijah.)

The Temptation of Jesus:
T1: Matthew 4:6 - Psalm 91:11,12
T1: Matthew 4:7 - Deuteronomy 6:16
T1: Matthew 4:10 - Deuteronomy 6:13

Jesus Begins to Preach in Galilee:
T1: Matthew 4:12 - Isaiah 9:1:
"Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan"

Jesus Heals the Sick:
T2: Matthew 4:23 - Isaiah 53

Sermon on the Mount:
T2: Matthew 5-7 - Exodus 19...:
(Note: The Sermon on the Mount {which is only in the Gospel of Matthew} refers to how only Moses was allowed up the mountain in Exodus, but Jesus brings everyone up the mountain. Jesus then gives new interpretations of the Commandments and Laws {from Exodus 20...})

Jesus Heals Many:
T2: Matthew 8 - Isaiah 53

Jesus Calms the Storm:
T2: Matthew 8:27 - Job 30:22, Isaiah 25:4, Zechariah 9:14, Psalm 89:9, Psalm 148:8:
"lightning and hail, snow and clouds, stormy winds that do his bidding" (Note: Several passages in the Hebrew scriptures indicate that God controls the weather)

Jesus Heals a Paralytic:
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5-6:
"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy."

Jesus Consorts with Sinners:
T1: Matthew 9:12 - Hosea 6:6:
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."

A Dead Girl and a Sick Woman:
T2: Matthew 9:22 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:25 - Isaiah 26:19:
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise"

Jesus Heals the Blind and Mute:
T2: Matthew 9:29 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5-6

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve:
T2: Matthew 10 - Joshua 4:1-2
"...the LORD said to Joshua, 'Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe...'" (Note: The number 12 is used throughout the "Old Testament" to represent 12 people, 12 rulers, 12 tribes, 12 special objects, etc. Also, Joshua and Jesus are the same name in Hebrew.)
T1: Matthew 10:34 - Micah 7:6

Jesus and John the Baptist:
T2: Matthew 11:5 - Isaiah 53
T1: Matthew 11:10 - Malachi 3:
"'See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,' says the LORD Almighty."

Woe on Unrepentant Cities::
T2: Matthew 11:20 - Genesis 19

God's Chosen Servant:
T2: Matthew 12:17 - Isaiah 53
T1: Matthew 12:17 - Isaiah 42:1-4::
"'Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.'"

Jesus and Beelzebub:
T2: Matthew 12:24 - 2 Kings 1:1-4

The Sign of Jonah:
T1: Matthew 12:40 - Jonah 1:17

Jesus Walks on the Water:
T2: Matthew 14:25 - Isaiah 43:5-6:
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. ... For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;" (Note: Walking on water was also a theme in Greek hero literature)

The Demand for a Sign:
T2: Matthew 16:4 - Jonah 1:17
T2: Matthew 16:1 - Genesis 19

Jesus Predicts His Death:
T2: Matthew 16:21 - Isaiah 53

The Transfiguration:
T2: Matthew 17:2 - Exodus 34:29:
"When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD."
T2: Matthew 17:11 - Isaiah 40:3
(Note: The symbolism in the transfiguration scene also reflects stories about Moses in the Hebrew midrash, as well as typical the sun-god imagery of the Greeks. See also: Philo, On the Life of Moses II, (288) "And some time afterwards, when he was about to depart from hence to heaven, to take up his abode there, and leaving this mortal life to become immortal, having been summoned by the Father, who now changed him, having previously been a double being, composed of soul and body, into the nature of a single body, transforming him wholly and entirely into a most sun-like mind;")

The Healing of a Boy With a Demon:
T2: Matthew 17:17 - Isaiah 53

Jesus Again Predicts His Death:
T2: Matthew 20:18 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 20:18 - Jonah 1:17
T2: Matthew 20:19 - Psalm 22

Two Blind Men Receive Sight:
T2: Matthew 20:29 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5

The Triumphal Entry:
T1: Matthew 21:2 - Zechariah 9:9:
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
T3: Matthew 21:9 - Psalm 118:26

Jesus at the Temple:
T1: Matthew 21:12 - Isaiah 56:7
"...for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Zechariah 14.21:
"Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a merchant in the house of the LORD Almighty."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Nehemiah 13:4-9:
"And I was very angry, and I threw all the household furniture of Tobiah out of the room [in the temple]. Then I gave orders and they cleansed the chambers, and I brought back the vessels of the house of God, with the grain-offering and the frankincense."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Hosea 9:15
"Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house."

The Fig Tree Withers:
T2: Matthew 21:19 - Hosea 9
"1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; ... 7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. 8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. 9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins. 10 'When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved. 15'... Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious. 16 Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.' 17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations." (Note: Many scholars have interpreted the cursing of the fig tree as a metaphor for Jesus' rejecting of those Jews who reject him and as a foreshadowing of his second coming and judgment. Hosea 9 provides the scriptural basis for this symbolism)

Signs of the End of the Age:
T3: Matthew 24 - Daniel 9:24-27:
"'Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two week, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.'"
T3: Matthew 24 - Daniel 11:31, 12:11
T3: Matthew 24 - Isaiah 13:8-11
"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless."
T3: Matthew 24 - Isaiah 34
"1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! 2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. 3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. 4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. 5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed. 6 The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat— the blood of lambs and goats..."

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus:
T2: Matthew 26:14 - Amos 2
"4 This is what the LORD says: 'For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. ... 5 I will send fire upon Judah that will consume the fortresses of Jerusalem.' 6 '... They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. ... 11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy. 13 Now then, I will crush you as a cart crushes when loaded with grain. (Note: The distinction between "Judas" and "Judah" is a part of English translation. In the original Greek they were both written as "Ioudas", thus these names were the same.)

The Lord's Supper:
T2: Matthew 26:20 - Psalm 41:9:
"Even the friend whom I trusted, who ate at my table, exults in my misfortune."

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial:
T1: Matthew 26:31 - Zechariah 13:7:
"'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!' declares the LORD Almighty. 'Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones"

Jesus' Prayers of the Cup at Gethsemane:
T2: Matthew 26:36 - Zechariah 12:2:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations."
T2: Matthew 26:36 - Psalm 16:5
"LORD, you have assigned me my portion and my cup; you have made my lot secure."

Jesus Arrested:
T2: Matthew 26:55 - Isaiah 53:7-8:
"...he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. "

Peter Disowns Jesus:
T1: Matthew 27:72 - Zechariah 13:7

Judas Hangs Himself:
T1: Matthew 27:4-10 - Zechariah 11:12-13:
T2: Matthew 27:4-10 - Jeremiah 19, Jeremiah 32

The Soldiers Mock Jesus :
T3: Matthew 27:27 - Flaccus IV ; Philo (Note: The mocking of people as kings was a common practice at the time, one such event was recorded by the Jewish writer Philo, and may be the basis for the mocking of Jesus scene):
"(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a scepter they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state. (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa [King Herod of the Jews] was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign;"
T3: Matthew 27:30 - Isaiah 50

The Crucifixion of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 27:32-44 - Isaiah 53
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 22
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Amos 2
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 69
T3: Matthew 27:45 - Amos 8

The Death of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 27:32-44 - Isaiah 53
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 22
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 69
T2: Matthew 27:52 - Ezekiel 37:11-13

The Burial of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 26:57 - Deuteronomy 21:22-23:
"If a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree [or plank], his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, for he who is hanged is the curse of God, so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance."
T2: Matthew 26:57 - Isaiah 53:9:
"They made his grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth." (Note: Jesus was placed in the tomb of a rich man)

The Resurrection
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Isaiah 26:19:
"Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead."
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Ezekiel 37:
"1 The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me all round them; there were very many lying in the valley, and they were very dry. 3 He said to me, ‘Mortal, can these bones live?’ I answered, ‘O Lord God, you know.’ 4 Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to these bones, and say to them: O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: I will cause spirit to enter you, and you shall live. 6 I will lay sinews on you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put spirit in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.’"
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Daniel 12:2-4:
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the dome, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end."
(Note: The resurrection of Jesus was portrayed as a sign of the end and as proof of the time of resurrections for all people)

Now, either you believe that the Hebrews were the greatest tellers of the future ever, and that the entire "Old Testament" is a work of coded predictions of the future, or you acknowledge the obvious, which is that the people who wrote the Gospels made up the stories based on the prior scriptures, a tradition in Jewish literature that went back hundreds of years by that time, and can be demonstrated in dozens of other works, including works in the Old Testament itself.

If Jesus really existed, then why is the entire story of his life composed of quotes and paraphrases of prior scriptures?

I think you know the answer. :doh:

 

[Mr. 5020]

Ironically, this is actually one of the biggest reasons not to believe at all.

The entire story of Jesus is constructed from prior scriptures. This is detailed here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#3



Now, either you believe that the Hebrews were the greatest tellers of the future ever, and that the entire "Old Testament" is a work of coded predictions of the future, or you acknowledge the obvious, which is that the people who wrote the Gospels made up the stories based on the prior scriptures, a tradition in Jewish literature that went back hundreds of years by that time, and can be demonstrated in dozens of other works, including works in the Old Testament itself.

If Jesus really existed, then why is the entire story of his life composed of quotes and paraphrases of prior scriptures?

I think you know the answer. :doh:

That's really what you see when you read all that??

My mind is boggled...

 

[Newman]

Ironically, this is actually one of the biggest reasons not to believe at all.

The entire story of Jesus is constructed from prior scriptures. This is detailed here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#3



Now, either you believe that the Hebrews were the greatest tellers of the future ever, and that the entire "Old Testament" is a work of coded predictions of the future, or you acknowledge the obvious, which is that the people who wrote the Gospels made up the stories based on the prior scriptures, a tradition in Jewish literature that went back hundreds of years by that time, and can be demonstrated in dozens of other works, including works in the Old Testament itself.

If Jesus really existed, then why is the entire story of his life composed of quotes and paraphrases of prior scriptures?

I think you know the answer. :doh:

Well of course his story is going to be filled with quotes and paraphrases from scripture. His life is the fulfillment of prophesy, not a fabrication of historical scripture.

I know that what I said does not prove you wrong (that's not what I'm trying to do), but what you said does not prove the story of Jesus Christ wrong.

 

[malachi151]

Well of course his story is going to be filled with quotes and paraphrases from scripture. His life is the fulfillment of prophesy, not a fabrication of historical scripture.

I know that what I said does not prove you wrong (that's not what I'm trying to do), but what you said does not prove the story of Jesus Christ wrong.

Well, as I showed here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#11

The few pieces of the Gospel stories that we are able to try and verify historically are either unverifiable or contradicted by the historical record. As I also show, each of these contra-historical claims in the Gospels also has a literary basis, mostly scriptural basis.

Now, for example, if something like that Massacre of the Innocents is contradicted by the historical record, but it has a scriptural basis, don't you think that's a pretty good clue that this is a story element that is DERIVED FROM the scriptures.

Now seeing as every single story element that is potentially verifiable by the historical record and also has a scriptural basis is contradicted by the historical record, that's a pretty good clue that these people were writing FROM scripture.

This really shouldn't even be surprising. Would you be surprised if Euripides wrote a play based on the Iliad and the Odessy? No, not shocking.

Would you be surprised if any other culture wrote religious stories about heroes, where the life of the hero was based on earlier stories? No, not shocking.

Then why would you be surprised that these people did the same thing, when we have hundreds of examples from their own culture and surrounding cultures of the exact same type of story writing?

Not only is this a pattern of behavior in the culture of the time, but the things being claimed are utterly unrealistic.

Healing people by casting out demons.

Walking on water.

Raising the dead.

Dying and coming back to life.

You think these things are real?

Not only are these fantastic stories that sound like all of the other myths of their time, but each and every one of those things HAS A SCRIPTURAL BASIS, it has a reason, other than reality, WHY people would write it into the story.

So, here is the thing, what do you think makes more sense?

People 2,000 years ago wrote fantastic stories based on scriptures, something that occurred many times in their culture and in the surrounding cultures.

The Jews were God's special chosen people and he encoded secret messages into their scriptures, which the Jews themselves couldn't understand, and then after over a thousands years of writing God's stories, God impregnated a virgin to give birth to himself, came to earth and fulfilled all of the secret codes that he had embedded in the Jewish scriptures, and he was rejected by the very same people who had written all the scriptures in the first place, instead being accepted by the Greek and Romans who had never read Jewish scriptures before. After a war in the which the Jews got soundly defeated by the Romans and lost their state, his story was recorded, the message of which was that the world was coming to and end and a new kingdom would be created as soon as he returned, which was going to be within the lifetime of the people in the story, but 2,000 years later...

And Christians have the nerve to call atheists irrational.... :rotfl:

 

[Newman]

Nothing you said above is irrational... all of it makes sense (assuming all of your sources are true and that your research was comprehensive). However, it is not enough for me to even slightly lose faith (assuming that is your motive). I chose choice B in your post a long time ago (and here comes the cheesey Christian talk) because something (Holy Spirit) moved inside of me, something (again the Holy Spirit) urged me toward becoming a Christian. I'm not a Christian because I have researched historical documents and logically deduced that Jesus Christ was a real person that was also the Son of God and died on behalf of my sins. I'm a Christian because of my faith in what I might not be able to prove empirically, historically, or scientifically. And although you may have found some evidence to support your ideas, your faith in the inexistence of Jesus, I am unmoved, unshaken, and consequently even stronger in my faith.

(BTW: I actually did skim through your book/article thingy, and I was very impressed with your dedication to your work)