ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

[chair]

... Have you actually looked into the evidence for the life of Christ? You do realize that there are many non-biblical accounts of the events in the Bible concerning Christ right?
...

"many non-biblical accounts"? Not really. How about naming a few? If you like, start yet another thread on this topic.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....

 

[rachael_gulley]

Wow.

Wow.

That is amazing. I would have never thought to have even begin to think of something like that.

 

[zackariath]

Often when i need strength i turn to the bible myself. One of my favorite passages is:

Mark:12:24- And jesus said to the apostles, display thou female dangley doodleys, lest ye be forced to depart.

Also ive found comfort in John:34:56- Thine records and thou platinum status, they are eternally wack if thou is not the baddest.

 

[dave3712]

That convinced you, huh? Wow... isn't that taking gullibility to an extreme?

OK... you've got these guys, see... scam artists... near the end of the 1st century, up until the middle of the 2nd century. They've discovered that they're onto a hot scam, with this 'salvation' stuff, because with the Roman occupation going on, everybody was in the mood for a little bit of hope and salvation.

Anyway... this scam required that they create the illusion that a bunch of the mythical stuff in the Pentateuch was coming true. So... they go through the Pentateuch, looking for prophetic sounding stuff... and they make a list. Then... as they create their fictional 'gospel' fantasies', using the VERY well-known 'suffering-hero-king' archetypal pattern, they 'Judaize' it by slipping in a few miracles and some situations that create the ILLUSION of prophecies fulfilled.

The reason the Psalm matches the gospel so well is because when they made this stuff up, they had the Psalm open on the table in front of them, and made sure that they incorporated as many elements of it as they could, without screwing-up the narrative.

Hallelujah... it's a miracle!

Gimme a break.

You really ought to try to learn a little bit about critical thinking... do you know what that is? Anyway... part of that includes the ability to discern what qualifies as actual evidence from what does NOT qualify as actual evidence.

I guess you must have been absent that day.

A scam is supposed to profit the liars, not leave them totally alone at a Cross.

The story predicted there would be the final curtain of death to the scam artist.

That doesn't make sense.
Who would create such a scam that ended with both failure, a whipping, and his own crucifixion?

Who would join in afterwards and be persecuted until 380AD?

 

[Acts19]

I can't think of a reason not to. That leaves way to many to believe.

 

[Absurdist]

The following is the first half or so of Pslam 22, written approximately 1000 years before Christ was born. Also, it should be noted that the first historical record of crucifixion is from the 6th century B.C., so it is likely that this psalm was written hundreds of years before anyone was ever crucified.

Studying this Psalm was one of the final steps that convinced me that the Bible is true, and that Jesus is who He says He is. I can think of no other rational conclusion, given the content of this psalm. To anyone who is unsure whether the Bible truly is the Word of God or simply a collection of books written by men, please take a few minutes to read this study of Psalm 22.

In Christ,
Turbo

I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all. Maybe I have no skill at Bible prophecy. The passages you quotes don't seem to suggest crucifixion in the slightest. And if they did, I couldn't reasonably conclude that this was iron-clad evidence that the Bible is the word of God.
Can you clarify?

 

[mikeahern123]

Don't know if this is absolut proof, but it is a logical proof of god... http://www.ehow.com/how_5604526_scientifically-prove-there-god.html

 

[Absurdist]

Don't know if this is absolut proof, but it is a logical proof of god... http://www.ehow.com/how_5604526_scientifically-prove-there-god.html

Holy smoke! You get points for originality. I've never heard a proof of God even remotely related to being destroyed by an alien civilization. However, you might want to read some books on cosmology. Scientists do not say the universe is infinite, nor that it contains an infinite amount of stars or planets. If you read anything about the Hubble telescope you frequently hear scientists talking about seeing the the 'known edge' of the universe. The fact is that, as the universe expands, it becomes cooler. If the universe were infinitely large, it would also be devoid of any heat. Scientists also talk about the Big Crunch, a theory that once the universe reaches a certain size, it collapses back on itself.

Here's a pretty lengthy Wiki article with excellent info including the known diameter of the universe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

Here's one on the 'Big Crunch': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

 

[RevDisturba]

You misunderstand the intent of the gospel writers. First of all, they were gospels. Literally, that means "good news." The word "good" implies an evaluation--a judgement. In this case, the judgement comes from different gospel writers. >>>Brevity Snip<<< It tells a story that was partially and selectively pasted into the Passion narratives. It's not that the ancient writers were so dumb and they told these mythological stories--it's that the ancients told creative, myth-filled stories and we got dumb and took them literally.

I think that Aikido and his foes are both correct. I do think there are minor transcriptional errors of the NT as well. However the will of God (Gods message) is not diminished and comes out loud and clear. I do disagree with some of Aikido's somewhat Gnostic ideas, such as Jesus not rising from the grave, but I have I am new to this dance.

; {>

 

[RevDisturba]

Scientists also talk about the Big Crunch, a theory that once the universe reaches a certain size, it collapses back on itself.

Scientists may talk about the big crunch, but as of today there isn't nearly enough mass (to the dismay of secular scientists) to close the universe. It seems, at least considering today's data, that the universe will expand forever.

; {>

 

[TeeJay]

Hello all,

I just posted a dissertation on the Seven Feasts of Israel for Tet on the thread "Does the Bible speak about the Rapture, anywhere?" I wish I could transfer it here to this thread, but I don't know how? You will find very compelling evidence for the Bible and God.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Nick M]

Hello all,

I just posted a dissertation on the Seven Feasts of Israel for Tet on the thread "Does the Bible speak about the Rapture, anywhere?" I wish I could transfer it here to this thread, but I don't know how? You will find very compelling evidence for the Bible and God.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

You don't know how to copy and paste? If you have things not picked up by the copy, then click on edit, then copy the text and paste it here.

 

[the valiant]

"let those who want to listen, listen" if you dont want to the walk away that simple. jesus was kind and gentle how we all should be, not like the loud street preachers the forcefully ram it in ur face.

however here is a little tool i picked from the "Give Me An Answer" Series.

"If I have a ball hidden in my pocket, and i didnt tell you. The reality is that there is a ball there, but you cant see it. If i said I have a ball in my pocket, would you believe me? You may not believe its there, but the reality is that it is there, so your going on faith and not being lead by sight"

 

[johnmartialking]

Psalms Code

Psalms Code

Read Psalms Code for a fascinating interpretation of the Psalms.

Just do a search for Psalms Code at scribd [dot com] or yahoo/google it. You can read or download the entire book for free.

Enjoy.

 

[CALVARY\CALVIN]

:neck: Thank you sir, ma'am.

i just wanted to say God bless U my brother in Christ!

 

[Lew11is22]

Great analysis Turbo! Thanks.

These prophecies were uniquely fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. I don’t understand how anyone (including an atheist) could consider this love of Christ for us and not be moved to surrender. Why are they so entrenched in darkness? Perhaps the Evil One has blinded them.

 

[stimpage]

If Christians could actually predict stuff, I would have been in hell a LONG time ago, when's the next rapture?
If you continue to use the bible to convince yourself god exists, you will never get a point of view from this millennium.

 

[sangridad]

"If I have a ball hidden in my pocket, and i didnt tell you. The reality is that there is a ball there, but you cant see it. If i said I have a ball in my pocket, would you believe me? You may not believe its there, but the reality is that it is there, so your going on faith and not being lead by sight"

if i walked up to you on the street and asked you how much money would you bet that there isn't a ball in my pocket how much would you bet. Just curious?

if i walked up to you on the street and took three metal balls and threw them in face and i asked how many do i have left what would you say. would care how many i had left or would you acknowledge the absurdity and illogicality of what i just did.

 

[Elia]

So, your understanding of the verse is limited to the literal interpretation above? When I pray the Shema, I think that it means:

Hear O Israel, HaShem is our God, HaShem alone​

Bs'd

"Echad" means "ONE", and not "alone".

See also the Greek word "eis" in Mark 12 from verse 28. That also means "one", and not "alone", or anything else.

Curiously, when I read the translation of the text in my Artscroll Siddur, it reads:

Hear, O Israel: Hashem is our God, Hashem, the One and Only.​

I then wonder, why did they say "One and Only"?

Because the Artscroll is not a literal translation.

Does the word echad mean the same as the word yachid?

No, "echad" means "ONE". "Yachid" means "single", it is most used in expressions as "His only son".

Why do you think Maimonides used yachid to express the Shema?

Why do you think Maimonides was trying to express the shma in the thirteen principles of faith?

He wasn't.

Does he present HaShem as an indivisible unity?

The shma does.

The English translation of the Shema I copied from my Artscroll Siddur would seem to indicate that mainstream Judaism is sold on the "fact" that Hashem is the "One and Only". I would agree if they understood that His Oneness is not that simple.

That Artscroll siddur is not what people build their religion on.

It is only a crutch for those who do not read Hebrew good enough.

Echad can mean a "composite unity". However, you seem to disagree that it can mean that. I posit that Rabbinic Judaism, out of a reaction to the Christian claim of the "Trinity", has gone too far and has changed the meaning of the Shema from that of the original. It seems to me that Maimonides had that in mind when he subsituted yachid for echad.

"Echad" means only "ONE", and nothing else. "one - two - three" in Hebrew is "ECHAD - stayim - shalosh".

"Echad" is simply the number one, and is just like the English "one".

It is not a "composite unity", just like "eis" in Mark 12:28 and on.

"Echad" and "eis" both mean simply "one".

My desire is not to proclaim that you must believe that HaShem is a "composite unity" from the Shema, but that you accept that it is a possibility. I hope that you can conceed the fact that there is not one verse in the TaNaKh that clearly or directly states that HaShem is an "indivisible unity".

How are we doing so far?

I'm doing OK. You are doing lousy. You just cannot accept the fact that God is one, because then your idol worship is exposed.

Read these texts again, and then realize that God is one, and not three:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible



Eliyahu