ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Jerry Shugart]

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world.

Where did I ever say that, Dave?

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that. Here is what I said about His existence before He created the world:

"Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

Can you understand my last sentence, the sentence in bold?

I know that you didn't make your inaccurate statement on purpose so could I ask you to please be a little more careful when you state my position?

Thanks!

In is grace,
Jerry

 

[DFT_Dave]

Where did I ever say that, Dave?

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that. Here is what I said about His existence before He created the world:

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world. I thought that Genesis clearly stated that God existed before he created the world. It seems to me, and most other Christians, that this is an absolute truth and a reality for us and for God. I quess you believe that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now" where there is no begining and no end. Either God existed before he created the world or the world has always existed; there is no other "reasonable" option.

Are you a liberal, do you "not" take the word of God literally? Do you believe in absolutes?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world. I thought that Genesis clearly stated that God existed before he created the world. It seems to me, and most other Christians, that this is an absolute truth and a reality for us and for God. I quess you believe that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now" where there is no begining and no end. Either God existed before he created the world or the world has always existed; there is no other "reasonable" option.

Are you a liberal, do you "not" take the word of God literally? Do you believe in absolutes?

--Dave

If I ask when did God create the world, and you answer, "in the eternal now". I then ask how do you define the eternal now, and you answer, where there is no beginning and end, all is present. I then conclude that God never began nor has ended the creation of the world, it has always been in God's eternal now that it has existed.

--Dave

 

[Zeke]

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world. I thought that Genesis clearly stated that God existed before he created the world. It seems to me, and most other Christians, that this is an absolute truth and a reality for us and for God. I quess you believe that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now" where there is no begining and no end. Either God existed before he created the world or the world has always existed; there is no other "reasonable" option.

Are you a liberal, do you "not" take the word of God literally? Do you believe in absolutes?

--Dave

Is that what Jerry said? which post was that?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Where did I ever say that, Dave?

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that. Here is what I said about His existence before He created the world:

"Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

Can you understand my last sentence, the sentence in bold?

I know that you didn't make your inaccurate statement on purpose so could I ask you to please be a little more careful when you state my position?

Thanks!

In is grace,
Jerry

I understand what you mean, we take it that God existed before he created the world but in God's view this is not true.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Is that what Jerry said? which post was that?

If I ask when did God create the world, and you answer, "in the eternal now". I then ask how do you define the eternal now, and you answer, where there is no beginning and end, all is present. I then conclude that God never began nor has ended the creation of the world, it has always been in God's eternal now that it has existed.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

If I ask when did God create the world, and you answer, "in the eternal now". I then ask how do you define the eternal now, and you answer, where there is no beginning and end, all is present. I then conclude that God never began nor has ended the creation of the world, it has always been in God's eternal now that it has existed.

--Dave

Checkmate!

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world.

Please read my last post on this thread.

Are you a liberal, do you "not" take the word of God literally? Do you believe in absolutes?

Dave, I am not a liberal. But unlike those in the "Open Theology" camp I can recognize "figurative" language and I do not take things which are clearly figurative and interpret them literally.

For exampe, let us consider the following verses which are set in a narrative:

"Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation" (Ex.32:10).

First the Lord spoke of "consuming" all of the Israelites except Moses. But then "repents" (has a change of mind) in regard to is previous stated intention to "consume them."

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people" (Ex.32:14).

I do not take the events of this narrative "literally" as do those in the "Open Theology" community. I have two reasons for this. The first is that I believe that the following verse is speaking about the very "nature" of God, that He will not change is mind:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).

The other reason why I believe that it should not be taken literal is in regard to whether or not the Lord's threat to "consume" the children of Israel was really a possibility within His plan. If He really had no intention of consuming them because of one reason or another then I do not believe that the events described in this narrative can be taken literally.

Earlier the Lord had made the following promise in regard to Judah:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be" (Gen.49:10).

My contention is that if the Lord consumed all of the children of Israel except Moses then it would then be impossible for the Lord to fulfill His promise regarding Judah. Therefore it is clear that His threat to consume all of them was never a realistic intention of the Lord's.

Therefore the events desribed in the narrative cannot be taken in a "literal" sense but instead must be understood in a "figurative" sense.

Now since I have answered all of the questions which you have asked me perhaps you will be kind enough to answer mine concerning the narrative just mentioned.

Do you think that the threat of the Lord to "consume" the children of Israel and begin anew with Moses was really a threat which the Lord would have actually carried through if He had not repented?

If your answer is "yes" then tell me how the promise in regard to Judah could have ever been fulfilled.

Thanks!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I understand what you mean, we take it that God existed before he created the world but in God's view this is not true.

What I said about this specific question is in "bold":

"When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

In regard to the eternal state there is no "before" or "after" so any question about things "before" or "after" in the eternal state do not make sense. Now perhaps you will answer my questions.

 

[themuzicman]

Do you even know what the word "synonyms" means?

Obviously not! You shouldn't use words that you do not even understand their meaning. The word means "a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another."

If they are "synonyms" then we must all of a sudden get us dumb as you are and imagine that the words "dwelling" and "clothed" have "the same or nearly the same meaning" as each other!

I am tired of discussing these things with an illiterate fool who thinks that when Paul says "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" he really means that flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom of God.

Go waste someone else's time with your unbelief and inability to understand English. I have had enough!

I see you have as much trouble understanding what I am saying as you do Paul. If you look at the context of what I was saying and look at the actual passage, you see "clothed" aligned with "heavenly dwelling" each time. Thus, Paul is closely relating the two, which what I meant (had you taken the time to understand) originally.

However, I suspect you've looked at 2 Cor 5:9-10 and realize that you're argument has failed there, and you've been trying to find a way to justify your heresy in 1 Cor 15, and you've failed there, as well, as you continue to assert that "also" is contrast, and continue to shred Scripture to make your theology work.

We, then, can only conclude that your argument and theology are utter failures, having failed the most basic of exegetical tests.

One would do well to avoid your teachings.

Muz

 

[Zeke]

If I ask when did God create the world, and you answer, "in the eternal now". I then ask how do you define the eternal now, and you answer, where there is no beginning and end, all is present. I then conclude that God never began nor has ended the creation of the world, it has always been in God's eternal now that it has existed.

--Dave

We know that God created all things visible and in invisible, Colossians 1:16, so we know that creation had two aspects one in the heavenly, and one that was earthly.
The realm of Gods glory is eternal and is unsearchable, so its obvious that God existed before the creation.

But the post of Jerrys that said He didn't exist before the creation, is what I am curious about, can you show me the post?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Please cease from misrepresenting what I said. What said about this specific question is in "bold":

"When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

But is this true from God's view? Please answer my conclusion. I will answer your question about God's repenting in my next post.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

To Zeke

Where did I ever say that, Dave?

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that. Here is what I said about His existence before He created the world:

"Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

Can you understand my last sentence, the sentence in bold?

I know that you didn't make your inaccurate statement on purpose so could I ask you to please be a little more careful when you state my position?

Thanks!

In is grace,
Jerry

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But is this true from God's view? Please answer my conclusion. I will answer your question about God's repenting in my next post.

Dave, if the idea that God lives in the ever present "now" is true then any question about things "before" or "after" in that realm make no sense.

To accept my idea that the eternal state is only in regard to the ever present "now" for the sake of argument and then to turn around and make an argument in regard to "before" or "after" in that same realm is not a valid argument.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I will answer your question about God's repenting in my next post.

Then why didn't you?

I am eagerly waiting for you answer or answers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But the post of Jerrys that said He didn't exist before the creation, is what I am curious about, can you show me the post?

Zeke, the question which was asked was in regard to "time."

And here is the answer which I gave that is in regard to "time":

"When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

I had said that the eternal state is in regard to the "ever present now" and therefore such questions about things "before" or "after" do not apply. Dave evidently cannot understand this and attempted to impeach what I said by applying the concept of "before" to a state where there is no "before" or "after."

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave, if the idea that God lives in the ever present "now" is true then any question about things "before" or "after" in that realm make no sense.

To accept my idea that the eternal state is only in regard to the ever present "now" for the sake of argument and then to turn around and make an argument in regard to "before" or "after" in that same realm is not a valid argument.

If God created the world in the eternal now where there is no before or after, beginning or ending, past or future, then the logical conclusion is that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now".

This is a very valid argument. It demonstrates how the idea of timeless eternity contradicts the Word of God.

--Dave

 

[Zeke]

Zeke, the question which was asked was in regard to "time."

And here is the answer which I gave that is in regard to "time":

"When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence."

I had said that the eternal state is in regard to the "ever present now" and therefore such questions about things "before" or "after" do not apply. Dave evidently cannot understand this and attempted to impeach what I said by applying the concept of "before" to a state where there is no "before" or "after."

I don't see where your saying God didn't exist before the creation like Dave is saying, I agree time in which we live was created, but also resides in the eternal at the same time.

Grace, Zeke.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't see where your saying God didn't exist before the creation like Dave is saying,

That is because I never said that!

His question was in regard to the concept of "time" and I stated that based on the "concept of time" that God did indeed exist before the creation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If God created the world in the eternal now where there is no before or after, beginning or ending, past or future, then the logical conclusion is that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now".

This is a very valid argument. It demonstrates how the idea of timeless eternity contradicts the Word of God.

Where are the answers to my questions which you promised? I answered your questions so please honor me by answering mine.

Thanks!

In His grace,
Jerry